funtoo-stable is going away

[drobbins]

Hi everyone,

 

We've decided to retire funtoo-stable to keep us focused as we move towards funtoo kits and other next-generation initiatives. I recommend that all stable users migrate to funtoo-current.

 

[nrc]

I'm glad you posted, I was considering rebuilding an old laptop with stable.

 

But I'm not clear on how kits will work as a "stable" replacement.  I understand kits in a "everything is current but I need a subset kept stable" scenario.  How will it work in a "I need almost everything to be stable" scenario?  Will there be a giant "stable-server" kit?

[Oleg Vinichenko]

its only deprecation of stable, which is what controlled by ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="amd64", for example, so users had "stable" ebuilds on their system by means of keywords. I find it a misconception as it never guaranteed a true stability. In fact stable had more problems than current, and maintaining it on Funtoo was not too good experience. Maybe this worked well back in the early day of Gentoo, i can't tell.

[dkg]

As a user of both -stable and -current, I wouldn't say that I've more issues with stable than with current.  Of course, my stable installs are servers, which removes a lot of the complexity.  Still, I didn't choose stable for system stability (which has rarely been an issue for me for any kind of funtoo install), I chose it to deal with fewer updates on the servers.  It's more "stable" in the sense that there are fewer system changes.  I'm not sure if kits will provide the same advantages.

[Oleg Vinichenko]

that's the goal of kits, the package list defined by kit will be less frequent updated and it will more controlled and predictable is what makes stable rebundant at some point.

[dkg]

that's the goal of kits, the package list defined by kit will be less frequent updated and it will more controlled and predictable is what makes stable rebundant at some point.

 

That's the goal of kits?  What I read was the following:

 

 

The mantra and vision of kits is as follows: "If my system becomes unstable, I want it to become unstable because I choose to use a more experimental or new set of packages, not just because I applied regular updates via emerge -auDN @world" This is the strategic vision of the effort and what we are striving to deliver. At the same time, we don't want to take away the ability of users to run newer versions of packages if they choose.

 

This is talking about system stability.  Anyway, I think my problem is the lack of available information.  The wiki page explains what "-prime" and "-snap" kit branches are, but not much else.  Will a user be able to choose different branches of a kit?  How is that done?  How would one choose to use an "unstable" package that belongs to a "stable" kit?

[nrc]

As a user of both -stable and -current, I wouldn't say that I've more issues with stable than with current.  Of course, my stable installs are servers, which removes a lot of the complexity.  Still, I didn't choose stable for system stability (which has rarely been an issue for me for any kind of funtoo install), I chose it to deal with fewer updates on the servers.  It's more "stable" in the sense that there are fewer system changes.  I'm not sure if kits will provide the same advantages.

 

I agree.  Whether by design or happenstance, my "stable" servers have had the desired affect of limiting server updates.  How much of that is the stable build vs the server flavor, I can't say.

 

No reason that kits can't work for this purpose as I understand them.  It's just something that will need to be actively curated.  Information on how and when that will happen and how it will be implemented is lacking at this point.

[NikosAlexandris]

I chose "stable" for my main working machine to have less updates to deal with. Then again, I did need to update some stuff to latest versions.  And this brings some extra-maintenance work with it. I am happy to learn about "kits".

 

Question: how do we migrate to current? Complete re-installation?

[Oleg Vinichenko]

No. You can actually test what will be the result by testing meta-repo (a successor of portage tree). 

https://github.com/funtoo/meta-repo/blob/master/README.rst

[Oleg Vinichenko]

this, will bring certain update such as perl-5.24 and ncurses-6. I'll write more detailed assistance guide on how to make an update. notice, that there could be some quirks still but testing the meta-repo could help significantly as each box is unique and can reveal bugs, in meta-repo and in scripts which makes the repo

[dkg]

No. You can actually test what will be the result by testing meta-repo (a successor of portage tree). 

https://github.com/funtoo/meta-repo/blob/master/README.rst

 

Again, I'm not understanding how kits are used, and this link doesn't help much.  Would one be choosing to use or not use a kit?  Is choosing to use a kit the equivalent of choosing -stable today?  Are there different stable/unstable branches of kits?  If one chooses to use a kit but want to use the latest version of package in that kit, will that be possible?  That is, what is the equivalent of keywording a package with kits?  It is implied that this is possible, but doesn't explain how.

[Oleg Vinichenko]

this link is about testing meta-repo, which will replace portage tree. it has some basic explanation of what kits are. master branches means they are have no direct control by Funtoo and pulling Gentoo ebuilds as they are. using master branch of curated kits, controlled kits, possibly can be provided, but it will not be actively supported.

More details (notice it's old news and ports-2017 is replaced with meta-repo) but it can probably give the idea: 

http://www.funtoo.org/News:New_Ports-2017_tree_and_Kits

It's not possible to give 100% information for now what will be production ready maintaining procedure as meta-repo is still beta. There will be announcement and a guide.

Stabilization of ebuilds is not performed -- if you mean adding stable keywords -- is what actually stable was. 

[nyback]

Hi everyone,

 

We've decided to retire funtoo-stable to keep us focused as we move towards funtoo kits and other next-generation initiatives. I recommend that all stable users migrate to funtoo-current.

My computers are slow and old. I run stable because my computers would not be able to keep up even if they where compiling 24/7. A new version of google chrome takes 3 days to compile.

Do i understand it correctly that i have no choice with funtoo but to switch to funtoo current and get a lot more package updates to compile? My only option is to go back to pure gentoo?

/Andreas

[NikosAlexandris]

Ping!  From the discussion I cannot extract whether testing the meta-repo is safe enough and, successively, if reverting the changes is easy if it does not play out nicely yet.

[ser]

I've always used stable version, because the current often crash on my system. Funtoo-stable is very good; i would stay on it.

[drobbins]

Funtoo Linux with the default kits will be very similar to the old 'stable', with fewer updates. Users who want more bleeding-edge will need to deviate from our default kit branches and will need an upcoming version of ego to do this.

[dkg]

Funtoo Linux with the default kits will be very similar to the old 'stable', with fewer updates. Users who want more bleeding-edge will need to deviate from our default kit branches and will need an upcoming version of ego to do this.

 

Thanks, but I'm still struggling with the bigger picture somehow.  Say I wanted to install emacs.  It seems as though I would have to have editors-kit selected.  Which is a 'master' branch.  So, there will be no stable (amd64) ebuild available?  Or will there still be amd64/~amd64 ebuilds in that overlay?  Or, say I wanted a stable KDE but need the latest Digikam to work with raws from my camera.  I would need to "deviate from our default kit branches" in order to do that?

[Oleg Vinichenko]

yes, in master branches, the ebuilds will be with keywords as they are, stable and unstable as gentoo puts them

[Sandro]

Why there is the build profile "Stable" yet ?

localhost ~ # epro list 

=== flavor: === 

   core, desktop*, hardened, minimal, server, workstation 

=== build: === 

   (current*), experimental, stable

May be a good thing to use "Stable" ?

or not ?

 

excuse me but i'm a bit confused (kits and "stable")  :rolleyes:

 

For example: if I use "master" about kits, with Stable build is not a "conflict" ?

Clearly to have advanced ebuilds, will be necessary "current" + kits with "master" choice.

Or is possible "stable" build with "prime*" in kits ?

 

mumble ... mumble ....

 

Or now instead 2 "levels" of stabilty we can use "build" + "kits" to obtain more than 4 levels from stable to "bleeding" ?

 

If you think I've become crazy, call me the psychiatrist immediately for me :D :D :D

 

Someone can give me some example ?

 

Thanx for the aid _'_ :)

[dkg]

yes, in master branches, the ebuilds will be with keywords as they are, stable and unstable as gentoo puts them

 

Thanks.  Is this also what I would get by "deviating from a default kit branch"?

[Oleg Vinichenko]

not necessarily, default branch could also contain ebuilds with stable and unstable ebuilds. by deviating into master (or other) branch unstable ebuilds will prevail, i believe.

[dkg]

not necessarily, default branch could also contain ebuilds with stable and unstable ebuilds. by deviating into master (or other) branch unstable ebuilds will prevail, i believe.

 

Ah, so there could be more than one branch available for a given kit.  I wasn't sure about that.

[Oleg Vinichenko]

and from my own experience, i have never used stable builds anywhere and there was no really major problems (like disastrous ones), maybe 2-3 only in last 10 years. so, a key is - when you know what to do with stable or unstable - you could expect things to work. if you don't know what to do, likely you'll trap into troubles regardless stable or unstable used. Sometimes updates can be frustrating, i agree. And for newcomers, of course, it's hard as they mostly driven by existing documentation, web, irc -which can be really wrong. The "stable" is what is controlled by matter of letter, in ebuilds, i can put "amd64" instead "~amd64" and it will be considered stable by package manager, which is of course far from real definition of stable. For example, back into not so old case (about 4 monthes), xorg-server-1.19 stabilized by gentoo, due to multiple security vulnerabilities in xorg itself and in it's core parts. xorg-1.19, in turn, found to be very unstable in certain conditions, so the security fixes diminished by the fact you have no working xorg. Those security fixes can be easily, and they are in Funtoo, backported into good known 1.17 version. of course, if 1.19 were ok for the one, he could choose using 1.19. Just trying to describe that stabilization and stable by means of packages, is a volatile term.

[dkg]

Understood.  As I tried to explain before, I've had very few software stability issues on funtoo, whether -stable or -current.  I'm not concerned about that part. :)  I'm just anxious about diving in without a better understanding how kits work.  Thanks.

[NikosAlexandris]

and from my own experience, i have never used stable builds anywhere and there was no really major problems (like disastrous ones), maybe 2-3 only in last 10 years. so, a key is - when you know what to do with stable or unstable - you could expect things to work. if you don't know what to do, likely you'll trap into troubles regardless stable or unstable used. Sometimes updates can be frustrating, i agree. And for newcomers, of course, it's hard as they mostly driven by existing documentation, web, irc -which can be really wrong. The "stable" is what is controlled by matter of letter, in ebuilds, i can put "amd64" instead "~amd64" and it will be considered stable by package manager, which is of course far from real definition of stable. For example, back into not so old case (about 4 monthes), xorg-server-1.19 stabilized by gentoo, due to multiple security vulnerabilities in xorg itself and in it's core parts. xorg-1.19, in turn, found to be very unstable in certain conditions, so the security fixes diminished by the fact you have no working xorg. Those security fixes can be easily, and they are in Funtoo, backported into good known 1.17 version. of course, if 1.19 were ok for the one, he could choose using 1.19. Just trying to describe that stabilization and stable by means of packages, is a volatile term.

 

Dear Oleg, thank for this commentary. The essence, I see, is to understand what and how to do.  As you put it "when you know what to do with stable or unstable - you could expect things to work. if you don't know what to do, likely you'll trap into troubles regardless stable or unstable used."  This is something that comes in time.