rasmusjc Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 Hi Guys, If this is not the type of discussion wanted here, please feel free to delete this post. I am looking at replacing Gentoo after years of running it on my main laptop.....once again I am sitting with a laptop that won't boot due to yet another portage package upgrade that either had 1) dependent packages that the ebuild didn't know to check for, 2) had a package that it decided couldn't be resident, yet didn't pull in a replacement so now I have a 'hole' in my system executable that no longer runs, 3) changed around my configuration files without even asking thereby breaking my system, 4) package installed but still won't work with other packages, ...... You get the idea. This happens to me about twice a year, and it always takes me 4 - 6 weeks before I can either figure out what is wrong, or I end up reinstalling the whole system. I'm at one of those impasses now. I typically like to run the latest software on my machine rather than stick to a 'stable' distro that takes years before they update to the devices I need to program on. I especially will take the standard stock kernels from kernel.org and run the latest when it is available. So, I'd be interested in what the responses to the following questions would be: 1. Has Funtoo been known to render a computer unbootable and unrecoverable (as in what I am facing with Gentoo now)? 2. What is the emphasis on creating the ebuilds? 3. Do the ebuild developers of the different packages actually fix the source code of the package to get it to work (or at least keep it from crashing), or is the emphasis only on making the package compile and install? 4. Am I still going to have to fight package masking, preserved libs, and new slot conflicting/file collisions every time I upgrade (I have had major problems with Gentoo on these very issues)? The responses I receive will determine how much forward I go with this distribution. I certainly hope you guys are more tolerant as I've gotten to the point of knowing that it is pointless asking for help on the Gentoo forums because I will either get flamed, get severly questioned as to why I can't do things like everyone else in the world, or get no answer because nobody understands the source code. Thanks. --James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Vinichenko Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 there're some controversial points in your post. There is no absolute guarantee about ebuilds and stability and dependencies. Sometime ebuilds and updates breaks things, sometimes it's clean. Funtoo trying to break this in various ways. Biggest and most important divergence from Gentoo, is that Funtoo is a user-oriented and user-driven distro. Unlike Gentoo, where most works looks like hobbiyst, hackery and so on ---no rationale, no QA (quality assurance), no production ideas, just make it run over the stream, fix just to fix, lack of strong leadership and centralized idea. 1. We would need to get details about "unbootable" It happens, when misconfigured system 2. We support all users who would like merge their ebuilds into portage tree 3. Ebuild is the tool to control, install software in the way developer want (and it shouldn't harm USERS at first) that's major achievement in package managent 4. Yes, unfortunately this problem persist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funtoo Linux BDFL drobbins Posted July 10, 2014 Funtoo Linux BDFL Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 Funtoo is a user-centered distribution, which means the focus is on your experience with Funtoo Linux and not on random development goals. We do try to keep things more stable than in Gentoo, by preventing unnecessary updates to the toolchain. We actually have a very small team right now. There are about 3 active committers, including myself. Although I will be working on significantly growing the team soon. The fight against package masking, preserved libs and slot conflicts are battles that I'm actively trying to fight over here in Funtoo land. We welcome you to help us fight them. Funtoo started when I tried to get my creation, Gentoo, to actually build. I can't guarantee you won't experience any issues but I can assure you that we'll be very responsive to any issues you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
666threesixes666 Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 i did a lot of gentoo's wiki and ill be the first to tell you funtoo's GREAT compared to gentoo.... issue 4 absolutely NOT... if you find anything in issue 4 bug reports are taken seriously, and resolved quickly.... (except the compiz 9.11 ebuild needs to be unforked) (but compiz isnt essential to a functioning system) he said every upgrade vincent, ive had this system for around 6 months, and haven't had problems with it being insolvent. if your system goes unbootable there are things to do to resolve that, like paste emerge log, and forward it to forums or irc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rasmusjc Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Ok, thanks for the replies....maybe I will try Funtoo by the end of this month as my schedule permits. I do need to get my main machine back up. To answer the question about what I mean about being 'unbootable'........I have systemd on my system that still seems to depend on udev also being installed (or my internal peripherals like SATA or Serial Ports are not found). It had been working until I tried to update to the next version of xorg-server which triggered a lot of updates on my system....gdm and systemd. However, systemd suddenly wouldn't install because udev was also installed and I had to uninstall it so I could get systemd to install (I hope you don't mind if I don't use the portage terminology at this point). Anyhow, I tried to install the new udev and gudev packages that are supposed to use the new systemd, but suddenly I now have conflicts with systemd, udev, gudev, and gdm and NONE of them will install/reinstall. Bottom Line: Udev no longer correctly understands my SATA interfaces, and comes to a hard stop in maintenance mode, which turns off the system when it enters. My only recourse now is to boot off of a live rescue DVD, or simply reinstall the system. I'm tired of this and am looking for something like, hopefully, funtoo where portage packages will simply install instead of telling me I can't (feels like it refuses to update because it doesn't want to). Anyhow, thanks again for the replies. --James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-g- Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 ...To answer the question about what I mean about being 'unbootable'........I have systemd on my system that still seems to depend on udev also being installed (or my internal peripherals like SATA or Serial Ports are not found). It had been working until I tried to update to the next version of xorg-server which triggered a lot of updates on my system....gdm and systemd. However, systemd suddenly wouldn't install because udev was also installed and I had to uninstall it so I could get systemd to install (I hope you don't mind if I don't use the portage terminology at this point). ... Sounds like you didn't do your homework before emerging sys-apps/systemd, udev IS part of systemd, so when you compile systemd, also compile udev, but also install virtual/udev so other packages which depend on udev know there's one package providing it, sys-apps/systemd or sys-fs/udev if you will use OpenRC, eudev in the case of Funtoo, all this is pretty much old news... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rasmusjc Posted July 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Sounds like you didn't do your homework before emerging sys-apps/systemd, udev IS part of systemd, so when you compile systemd, also compile udev, but also install virtual/udev so other packages which depend on udev know there's one package providing it, sys-apps/systemd or sys-fs/udev if you will use OpenRC, eudev in the case of Funtoo, all this is pretty much old news... This response is very disappointing to me......... WIth all due respect, this is one type of the responses I see day in and day out on the Gentoo forums, and I was hoping to see better here. I'll say my piece here.....then I'll be quiet after this. 1. To address the response above: Let me ask you a question......Do you honestly think that If I had not done my homework, that I would have had a functioning systemd package up until this last upgrade that rendered my system unbootable? I think the answer to that is 'NO'. I have been running Gnome 3 (cinammon) with systemd for over a couple of years successfully. I am aware that udev is included with systemd (but in reality with the portage packages on Gentoo, there is a systemd-udev package that also has to be installed to have the systemd udev support). I have a 4 year old custom HP laptop with a 3.8Ghz Extreme Dual Core 2 Intel processor that still runs circles around any i7 core that I've come across, and it does have some older internal peripherals that aren't fully supported by the current systemd/udev packages, which is why I have had the older udev overlaid with the systemd package so that the code will still be there and in use with the systemd. The lastest upgrade had me remove Udev entirely, and then has shown that systemd doesn't support my peripheral (including the SATA interface portion), but, now, for the first time....Portage does not let me install systemd, udev, gudev, or the systemd-udev packages due to slot conflicts, conflicts, package-masks, etc. It is really silly and leaves me with an unbootable machine....for no other reason than somebody thought they were being clever with portage. 2. Your response disappoints me because it appears you reached back to the standard response with a premise that 'The Users are dumb and don't know what they're doing." So you proceeded to tell me I hadn't done my homework, when, in fact, I was working because I did do my homework. I was hoping you could pick up that you weren't talking to the average run of the mill user, or that you would assume your users might have some intelligence. Apparently I was too optimistic. FYI - I have been a Software Engineer for 40 years, and a good part of my job has been to set up Linux Kernels for ARMs, PowerPCs, Intel, Freescale, and TI embedded processors and DSP, so please excuse me when I might get a little offended at your response. 3. In this particular situation with Systemd, I would hope Funtoo would not have the conflict or packing problems with systemd that I've encountered with Gentoo, but your response makes me think that Funtoo does have the same problems. Anyhow, this has been very revealing to me, and I now have something to think about in deciding if I should get involved with Funtoo. I guess I will decide by the end of the Month. Thanks for the replies. --James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-g- Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Don't take my comment as an attack, I don't think users are dumb, the fact is I'm just an user of both gentoo and funtoo, but I'm not here to sugarcoat you, I was pointing you to the problem you have, but here's what I mean you didn't do your homework, installing systemd on gentoo, is knowing you are using 'the second' not the most supported init system, so problems are to be expeted, but to be willing to do a little more research if those problems arise, will save you more trouble and time, you seem to have wanted to install sys-fs/udev and sys-apps/systemd at the same time, but you really wanted sys-apps/systemd and virtual/udev, and if after getting the block you would not just have assumed 'this is broken', and take a look at the ebuild of either systemd or udev (I hope you don't think this is too much for users), taking form the ebuild for sys-fs/udev-215, you can notice: COMMON_DEPEND=">=sys-apps/util-linux-2.20 acl? ( sys-apps/acl ) gudev? ( >=dev-libs/glib-2.34.3[${MULTILIB_USEDEP}] ) introspection? ( >=dev-libs/gobject-introspection-1.38 ) kmod? ( >=sys-apps/kmod-16 ) selinux? ( >=sys-libs/libselinux-2.1.9 ) !<sys-libs/glibc-2.11 !sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration !sys-apps/systemd ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If you are not familiar with the notation this means not having sys-apps/systemd is a requierement to install this package abi_x86_32? ( !<=app-emulation/emul-linux-x86-baselibs-20130224-r7 !app-emulation/emul-linux-x86-baselibs[-abi_x86_32(-)] )" Anyway, I hope you do solve your problem in gentoo, but let me point you also, you hope the funtoo users to not have these kind problems if they want to use systemd, but systemd is not supported by the funtoo developers, I'm using it but I have my local portage handling it and don't expect support for it, so don't use funtoo if you want systemd, however if you look around in the forum, you will see the news of Gnome-3.12 being supported without systemd on funtoo, so you may want to give that a try if Gnome is your reason for using systemd.PD: If we're going to brag about experience and all that, I'm a ~1 year old newbie gentoo user and like ~4 months funtoo user, have been using FLOSS for 5 years now, and just starting college, but I'm curious and don't like to ask unless I'm out of resources of my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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