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Renich

My 2 cents on systemd

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I would also like to point out that is  a shame that the most PR funtoo seems get  is because its 'anti-systemd' stance, and even drobbins makes stupid threads just to mock systemd, I think funtoo has more than that and some really neat ideas, I would have liked to try and contribute more (Look at the 2nd most viewed thread in this subforum after the screenshots one, is the one with my wallpapers), but this kind of childish attitude, and some other critisim I won't state here discourages potential contributors, altought it might attract more users 'running away from systemd', and not really trying funtoo because they thought they might like some of the other neat ideas, than just putting effort to block a package from getting installed, wich is what the dev team really does I'd think they would be better and with less work if the policy was just non-solve an redirect to gentoo systemd bugs.

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I would also like to point out that is a shame that the most PR funtoo seems get is because its 'anti-systemd' stance, and even drobbins makes stupid threads just to mock systemd, I think funtoo has more than that and some really neat ideas, I would have liked to try and contribute more (Look at the 2nd most viewed thread in this subforum after the screenshots one, is the one with my wallpapers), but this kind of childish attitude, and some other critisim I won't state here discourages potential contributors, altought it might attract more users 'running away from systemd', and not really trying funtoo because they thought they might like some of the other neat ideas, than just putting effort to block a package from getting installed, wich is what the dev team really does I'd think they would be better and with less work if the policy was just non-solve an redirect to gentoo systemd bugs.

Its a shame you keep going. I use Funtoo because I trust Daniel and his decisions, mainly because we think alike on a lot of issues. I loved Gentoo in the early days, and realized that its decline was because they didn't listen to their founder. Basically, I followed Drobbins here from Gentoo. It was a lucky coincidence that we have similar views on systemd.

 

To insinuate that we came here because we hate systemd is just more of you lashing out. To do something like that would be childish, and you make this thread personal when you accuse people of childish things. You have a lot to learn.

 

We don't like systemd because we tried it and evaluated it on its own merits, ran comparisons, and studied its design philosophies and, based upon our experience and how we think a Unix system should be administered, we simply don't think systemd is a good choice. Worse yet, the supporters of systemd, like yourself, feel some need to attack people that don't support your view. You feel that if we don't like systemd, we need to be educated. Well, that's insulting in the extreme! How dare you assume we can't make our own choices?

 

And the systemd supporters like yourself, mainly due to pressure from Redhat (who's employee created this mess) are removing OUR freedom of choice. Linux had always been about choices and freedoms, and I VIOLENTLY oppose an initiative that seeks to remove the 'Free' from my 'Free Software'.

 

Give the rest of us some credit and quit pretending we're idiots. Go have fun with systemd, just leave the rest of us out of it.

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

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Its a shame you keep going. I use Funtoo because I trust Daniel and his decisions, mainly because we think alike on a lot of issues. I loved Gentoo in the early days, and realized that its decline was because they didn't listen to their founder. Basically, I followed Drobbins here from Gentoo. It was a lucky coincidence that we have similar views on systemd.

 

To insinuate that we came here because we hate systemd is just more of you lashing out. To do something like that would be childish, and you make this thread personal when you accuse people of childish things. You have a lot to learn.

 

We don't like systemd because we tried it and evaluated it on its own merits, ran comparisons, and studied its design philosophies and, based upon our experience and how we think a Unix system should be administered, we simply don't think systemd is a good choice. Worse yet, the supporters of systemd, like yourself, feel some need to attack people that don't support your view. You feel that if we don't like systemd, we need to be educated. Well, that's insulting in the extreme! How dare you assume we can't make our own choices?

 

And the systemd supporters like yourself, mainly due to pressure from Redhat (who's employee created this mess) are removing OUR freedom of choice. Linux had always been about choices and freedoms, and I VIOLENTLY oppose an initiative that seeks to remove the 'Free' from my 'Free Software'.

 

Give the rest of us some credit and quit pretending we're idiots. Go have fun with systemd, just leave the rest of us out of it.

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

 

Again, I was perfectly happy not promoting systemd here, actually look around you'll notice the only thread I ever created was the wallpapers one, otherwise have just been responses to others asking about help mostly, It was you and pr1vacy who revived this thread not me.

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I'll just leave this here:

 

...

 

To insinuate that we came here because we hate systemd is just more of you lashing out. To do something like that would be childish, and you make this thread personal when you accuse people of childish things. You have a lot to learn.

...

My only regret is it took systemd for me to serioulsy look at Funtoo. It's great! Super lean and super fast. Best OS in the land!

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I'll just leave this here:

 

 

Two seperate people. Two seperate opinions(although I agree with all his points)

 

It's two individuals who have arrived at Funtoo for different reasons so I don't get the point you are trying to make.

 

I use gas in my car. You use gas in your car. Does that mean we have the same beliefs?

 

I do hate systemd. FACT. Everything about it. FACT.

 

Why? This is reason enough:

 

e8KRSE6.png

 

Invasive and growing. At this rate there will be only one Linux to choose from. Redhat.

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Two seperate people. Two seperate opinions.

 

 

 

It's two individuals who have arrived at Funtoo for different reasons so I don't get the point you are trying to make.

 

I use gas in my car. You use gas in your car. Does that mean we have the same beliefs?

 

I do hate systemd. FACT. Everything about it. FACT.

 

Why? This is reason enough:

 

e8KRSE6.png

 

Invasive and growing. At this rate there will be only one Linux to choose from. Redhat.

My point was and I stated it previously "I have percived funtoo getting pouplarity mainly for not using systemd and taking the position that it will never give support for it, and not the other neat Ideas I think are better than the effort of keeping systmed away and not going the way gentoo did, leaving it to be a choice by the user", I just did't want to keep making this much longer, and I was not talking only about you, but more about other instances I have read around the web also.

 

Nice picture BTW. I dont hate nor love systemd, I just use it and like some of it's Ideas, the same way I use funtoo and other init systems(BSD) and like some of it's ideas.

 

 

PD: Have you looked into the amount of software that gets maintained by people working at redhat that is kind of defacto among many linux distributions ( e.g. A lot gcc, and the complete coreutils, I think the still maintain sysvinit) and they employed the likes of the once 'Second in Command' in the Linux Kernel Alan Cox for most of his career until retirement? I would actually like that to be less but I'm at least glad they follow the open source model, altough I do suspect that if they decided to be more privative a lot of the clever people working ther would leave, like what happened with Oracle and Sun.

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Invasive and growing. At this rate there will be only one Linux to choose from. Redhat.

The picture doesn't mention udev nor the new systemd-boot which now manages your system before the kernel even loads! I'm wondering how the old LinuxBIOS project is doing ... might be nice to replace my uefi bios with a slim Linux kernel :)

 

In defense of systemd, I understand the choice to include udev functionality and I likely would have done the same. It makes sense to be able to get the information directly from the kernel as an event source. But, none of the rest of userspace should care which udev you use nor should the original udev be changed. The fact that they saw fit to enforce their idea as the 'one true way' is wrong. They should emulated existing functionality and moved on.

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

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The picture doesn't mention udev nor the new systemd-boot which now manages your system before the kernel even loads! I'm wondering how the old LinuxBIOS project is doing ... might be nice to replace my uefi bios with a slim Linux kernel :)

 

I think you already know this, but you can do away with the bootloader for UEFI, with the CONFIG_EFI_STUB, and boot the kernel directly from the EFI menu, and compile in your command line arguments, but because of the way you wrote that I guess you don't like UEFI either.

About udev I would say I didn't see the need to put it into the systemd repo when it was being being widely used, and In fact was a shady and totally unnecessary thing to do that in the end only hurted systemd anyway, Kay Sievers is not anyones favorite person in the linux world anyway, it's a shame there was not other better hacker at dealing with the community to take the udev maintance(I think it was his project from the beginning anyway, I wish somebody else had made udev first I guess).

 

By the way, since you think stdin and stdout are so awesome, this might be of your interest, the presentation is quite interesting. and a document to keep around for reference.

 

https://www.irill.org/events/ghm-gnu-hackers-meeting/videos/jim-meyering-goodbye-world-the-perils-of-relying-on-output-streams-in-c

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I think you already know this, but you can do away with the bootloader for UEFI, with the CONFIG_EFI_STUB, and boot the kernel directly from the EFI menu, and compile in your command line arguments, but because of the way you wrote that I guess you don't like UEFI either.

About udev I would say I didn't see the need to put it into the systemd repo when it was being being widely used, and In fact was a shady and totally unnecessary thing to do that in the end only hurted systemd anyway, Kay Sievers is not anyones favorite person in the linux world anyway, it's a shame there was not other better hacker at dealing with the community to take the udev maintance(I think it was his project from the beginning anyway, I wish somebody else had made udev first I guess).

EFI is fine, UEFI is a joke. And mine is broken. It actually looks for the Microsoft EFI file to boot and none of the standard locations so making dual boot means renaming the MS loader so grub can chain it and putting grub where the MS loader is at ... and any hiccup causes MS to replace its loader which clobbers grub. "Made for Windows8" Luckily, there is "Legacy Mode" and I gave up on dual boot anyway.

 

As for udev ... its had a long history. I only assume they have good reason for getting the kernel hotplug events as I can see a use for that in their "kdbus" scheme, but as you said, its been mismanaged.

 

 

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

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Please stop. There are no lies nor exaggerations, just relations of personal experience ... from highly experienced people no less. For example, I'm not a moron and I can make GDM stop respawning! SO, instead of insinuating that I'm too dumb to make it stop, I obviously had some other point I was making.

My point is that only systemd seems to think that this is a good idea! Even systems that (erroneously IMHO) respawn a service that dies, will refuse to do so without limits on the rate. This is absolutely dangerous and can bring a system to its knees. What if it died due to low memory? Running it again could cause something ELSE to die. If I wanted automatic service respawn, I'd have Nagios do it and it would be done right, and it would never respawn twice in 10 minutes, and would send me a text every time it did, with additional limits per hour/day/etc.

 

The auto restart of services shows the mindset of the systemd developers. Us old Unix admins want to find the problem, fix it, then start the service ourself. Systemd tries to be "easy" and basically 'reboots' the service. Its Windows oriented thinking!

 

Your constant use of personal attacks shows us you are frustrated because you have nothing relevant to contribute. Please stop calling everyone liars. Its not helping your argument.

 

As for logs, I don't understand why you pretend its not an issue when you can just read the bug report that the logs get corrupt. And how compatible is all this with syslog? I want all my logs on one machine and when something goes dead, I read it on the log server. Does journalctl filter by machine? Or can systemd even handle syslog content from another machine without sending it through syslog?

 

But I can install another system log to get the features I want ... wait ... Why would I switch to systemd which tries to take over a service, just to proxy it right back to the service that was supposed to handle it in the first place? You are building a house of cards with your server. You say systemd is modular, but your definition is different than mine. In my book, modular means that when my SATA drive dies, I can replace it with another from ANY vendor. Systemd is locking out the alternatives and so we can't easily replace those modules. Thus, its NOT modular, but maybe sectional. It does not play nice with others and so it will be punished with exile.

 

Again, there is no benefit to using systemd, just stuff getting in my way. You talk of negligible latencies ... but what do I get in return for the latency? TROUBLE! Just dump systemd and use a real syslog.

 

When I hear systemd, I think of that Taylor Swift song ... "I knew you were trouble when you walked in ..."

 

 

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

 

Man, you are too defensive. You keep saying you're not dumb and all but I haven't found the part where they call you dumb. As I see it, you're the one assaulting g-j- while he, objectively, writes his opinion on things, backing it with code. 

 

Please, do your best to defend your point in the same way or as best as you can. Bashing people gain you anything. Remember, respect is earned, not asked for.

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PD: Have you looked into the amount of software that gets maintained by people working at redhat that is kind of defacto among many linux distributions ( e.g. A lot gcc, and the complete coreutils, I think the still maintain sysvinit) and they employed the likes of the once 'Second in Command' in the Linux Kernel Alan Cox for most of his career until retirement? I would actually like that to be less but I'm at least glad they follow the open source model, altough I do suspect that if they decided to be more privative a lot of the clever people working ther would leave, like what happened with Oracle and Sun.

Well, in my case, I have nothing against Red Hat. As you say, they invest in maintaining a lot of FOSS. Fedora is the lead, which the upstream for their RHEL. While I collaborated more actively there, we were always pointed upstream. The author of the FOSS is the one we should support and help in every way possible. That philosophy is what brought me to them.

 

Fedora, as the upstream, is an awesome project. Very collaborative and with a great community. Red Hat, mainly, takes care of the resources it needs to function. Besides, they've open sourced a lot of cool software; following their own FOSS commitment principles.

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Man, you are too defensive. You keep saying you're not dumb and all but I haven't found the part where they call you dumb. As I see it, you're the one assaulting g-j- while he, objectively, writes his opinion on things, backing it with code.

 

Please, do your best to defend your point in the same way or as best as you can. Bashing people gain you anything. Remember, respect is earned, not asked for.

You don't have to say something directly to imply something. Perfect example, I mentioned the respawning of GDM ... an example of a bad practice and the particular mindset of systemd that I disagree with.

 

To respond by saying, "Well, I figured out how to make it stop ..." 1 - Avoids the entire point. 2 - Implies that I couldn't figure it out. I think everyone in this thread can figure out how to make it stop, so ask yourself why such a comment was made if not the implication I noted?

 

And I don't need to see code at all. This isn't a debate. Once again, no one can give me any benefit to using it. It goes against my philosophy and what I think is right, and DEFINATELY goes against the atmosphere of free choice that the Linux community has enjoyed for the past 2 decades. Code is, s I said previously, an attempt to 'educate' me. This implies I need education. Every systemd supporter seems to think that I need more education if I don't agree.

 

Do you not see how patronizing that is? I don't need education! I can disagree!

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

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Renich, on 01 Jul 2015 - 01:13 AM, said:

I am, of those, who actually have fun using Funtoo.

Good for you. The rest of us hate it. It's just too fast and too lean for my liking. Maybe there's a way we can fatten it up and slow it down? END SARCASM

 

 

Renich

Systemd has been adopted by many of the important GNU & Linux distributions all around. It is the standard in all the new main stream distributions; or, at least, most of them. This is not because they're all blockheads and made the decision to switch just for the sake of fashion. Then again, I have not read the code and am not aware of the specifics.

Statistically speaking it's impossible for them to all be blockheads.

 

As far as switching for the sake of fashion? I think that's what some people have accepted as THEIR reason for switching. It's a coping mechanism. That's what some people do when the distro they are using decides to yank other options out from under them and maybe they aren't advanced enough to prevent it from happening.

 

By your own admission you haven't read the code and aren't aware of the specifics. That makes me wonder why you would be so eager to convert to systemd??

 

 

It is used a lot and it will be the industry standard for servers and embedded systems.

 

Pure propaganda. I'm guessing you work for RHL.

 

 

We do not use it. We consider it trash. We, also, alienate ourselves from the rest of the industry and become something totally different; which makes it really hard to be considered as a serious alternative OS for the aforementioned. One can, always, implement it as far as one can and use it wherever it is possible. It's, still, hard to convince my manager/client that Funtoo is awesome, though.

 

I think there are quite a few excellent reasons that systemd is considered trash by the majority of funtoo users. I would also venture to guess that the average Funtoo user has had a decade or more of server experience. The current init isn't broken or dysfunctional enough to justify making a dramatic switch to systemd. I'll take alienation.

 

Would your client's and manager be okay with Gentoo? Install that and then change the init to OpenRC. Now you have Gentoo and nobody gives a darn about the init. You could have saved yourself the headache and installed funtoo and just set the 'branding' use flag to on. Nice Gentoo openrc login page and nobody else is wise about it. ;)

 

 

Systemd is not bad at all. I've used it since I come from Fedora. To me, it is really simple to use, well documented and easy to understand. It manages almost every aspect of the system; and keeps growing since almost every upstream project is using it and contributing to it. It is destined to become better.

 

Okay Lennart. Jokes over. Go back to RHL and quit trolling the funtoo forums.

 

 

Meanwhile, we cannot even use it since it is not supported. This choice is not given to us. One has to go against our distro in order to try it out or test it's implementation. The alternative is to switch to Gentoo; but I didn't come to Funtoo to start using Gentoo.

 

Well one of the key points of Funtoo is the anti-systemd approach. Everything is working well without it. Why would anyone want to pollute this OS? I'd put Funtoo up against any systemd based distro and we can compare performance and reliability. No doubt who the winner will be.

 

One thing I learned is it's hard to fight a distro that isn't moving in the direction you want. It would be much easier for you to move to Gentoo or a systemd based distro then stick to Funtoo. I fought systemd in Debian testing and there was virtually something new to weed out on a three times a week basis. I gave up and came to Funtoo and have no regrets. If Debian dumps systemd tomorrow I'd still stay with Funtoo. The core group in charge of this distro are top notch.

 

 

Hey, OpenRC is not bad at all. It might lack some functionality or, maybe, it is my ignorance talking. Anyway, it is what we use and what we have. It boots fast and it's able to get the job done and pretty well. It is easy to use and stuff... but I don't see upstream distributions adopting it nor contributing in any way.

 

What functionality is OpenRC lacking exactly that you need on a daily basis for your personal use or server use?

 

By your own admission it boots fast, get's the job done and is easy to use....but since other distributions decided to be wreckless and make the switch you think you need to do the same too?

 

Sounds like you want to switch for the 'sake of fashion'.

 

As far as upstream distributions? There are a few that still have it as an option. Arch/Manjaro comes to mind. My 2nd favorite distro behind Funtoo at the moment is this one: http://sourceforge.net/projects/manjaro-openrc/files/15.09/xfce+ob/      IMAGES

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Sorry to reply to an old post, but just saw this ...

 


We do not use it. We consider it trash. We, also, alienate ourselves from the rest of the industry and become something totally different; which makes it really hard to be considered as a serious alternative OS for the aforementioned. One can, always, implement it as far as one can and use it wherever it is possible. It's, still, hard to convince my manager/client that Funtoo is awesome, though.

 

You are complaining that Funtoo isn't a serious alternative because its not like everyone else?  IMHO, its the ONLY alternative!  It's not much of an alternative if its exactly the same as everyone else.  And not giving you a choice?  Uhmm ... we aren't getting a choice from any of the mainstream distros, and they have way more resources to maintain different "choices".  I think you should bug them to support OpenRC!  That would be more fair.

 

As for why the other distros chose to switch, its because of systemd's practices (Embrance, Extend, Extinguish?  Anyone else remember that philosophy?) where it looked like they would have to maintain such projects as udev and policykit and Gnome by themselves because of systemd dependencies.  At the time the decision was made, that was the way it looked.  Now, thanks to a very few people (wish I could remember their names, they need to be thanked and sponsored) those projects have non-systemd ports.  We may get Gnome a couple months late, but we get it.

 

Funtoo is the brainchild of our BDFL ... if you trust him on the rest of the OS, trust him on this issue too.  In either case, its not a Democracy :)  You don't get to choose.  It IS Open-Source, so you could fork it, or back-port the changes to Gentoo and then run systemd all you want.    Just don't call it Funtoo if it runs systemd.   However, when it comes to drinking the systemd Kool-Aid or the Funtoo Kool-Aid, I choose Funtoo.

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These are the lies or exaggerations whatever you like, I've had that problem with GDM failing, and had no problems finding out how to fix it(emergecy target), and lost no logs at at all, I run fedora on a 32bit mini-hp and gdm doesn't work, so I had to use lightdm, had no trouble changing that using systemd tools.

Here another:

 

No, they're just other people's opinions and experiences.  The fact that they're different than yours doesn't disprove them.

 

But systemd isn't a monolithic binary doing everything, And uses several programs in combination to get the job done, and I'd think they were referring to the difference between having a separation of hardware, operating system and tools, to what I've read was the norm back then hardware + specific os or program bundled togheter, the fact that systemd uses IPC and not only stdin and stdout and pipes, is just a difference in the way those programs work together in my opinion, and some of its most popular and useful programs came out out of necessity as well (nspwan).

 

Systemd is exactly what Kernighan and Pike referred to as a "monolithic self-sufficient subsystem."   It's a collection of tightly coupled binaries, each of which does more than any single program intended for its purpose should in a UNIX-like environment. 

 

It has nothing to do with hardware and OS bundling.  We're talking about the UNIX philosophy - portability across hardware was a key attribute from day one.  They were specifically talking about what programs do and how they interoperate.   

 

Your comments suggest that you're not familiar with the UNIX philosophy.  Wikipedia has an entry that is a good starting place to learn more about it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy

 

You're free to think that the UNIX philosophy isn't really important today.   I believe that it was a key factor that enabled much of what we enjoy in the open source world today and that's important to maintaining those benefits in the future.

 

If you actually look at the code main.c(the systemd program PID1, the file that contains it ) Is ~2k lines[1]( I know sysvinit's init.c  in the end is smaller and doesn't have as many includes, but the logic of how the init works is still less than 2k lines of code not a big monolithic thing)

Look at other init programs lenght counting the files that get compiled and contain the logic for the init:

FreeBSD(init.c 1.7K LOC) [2] 

OpenBSD(init.c 1.5k LOC) [3]

sysvinit  ( init.c[2.9k] + utmp.c[~250] + init.h [~100] + init_req.h[~100] + paths.h [~100] + set.h [~20]) 3.5k LOC [4]

Your numbers here are nonsense.  The systemd main function pulls in tens of thousands of lines of code from other source files.  Do you really believe that 2k of code compiles into a 1.5MB executable for systemd but 40KB for sysvint?   We're talking about a binary that is forty times larger.

 

I'd have expected someone of the age you seem in your picture to be more mature, and actually comment something useful, a shame you lose your time making fun of people rather than spreading the wisdom you might indeed have.

A person of the age that I seem in my picture recognizes that when someone says something ridiculous sometimes it's better to laugh at it than bother to argue with it.

 

Anyway, lets not waste anymore time on this, the code is what will speak in the end, these flames will just be space wasted in some server.

I don't care if you like systemd. Feel free to use a distribution that supports systemd.  You can sing its praises in the forums for those distros to your heart's content and you will never find me there arguing with you.

 

I believe that systemd and the mindset that spawned it is harmful to Linux and open source in general.  I believe that it's important that we continue to have distributions that are dedicated to working without it.  For that reason I support Funtoo and I will argue against anyone who comes here and claims that systemd is a good thing or that Funtoo should support it.

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Good for you. The rest of us hate it. It's just too fast and too lean for my liking. Maybe there's a way we can fatten it up and slow it down? END SARCASM

 

Statistically speaking it's impossible for them to all be blockheads.

 

As far as switching for the sake of fashion? I think that's what some people have accepted as THEIR reason for switching. It's a coping mechanism. That's what some people do when the distro they are using decides to yank other options out from under them and maybe they aren't advanced enough to prevent it from happening.

 

By your own admission you haven't read the code and aren't aware of the specifics. That makes me wonder why you would be so eager to convert to systemd??

 

 

Pure propaganda. I'm guessing you work for RHL.

 

 

I think there are quite a few excellent reasons that systemd is considered trash by the majority of funtoo users. I would also venture to guess that the average Funtoo user has had a decade or more of server experience. The current init isn't broken or dysfunctional enough to justify making a dramatic switch to systemd. I'll take alienation.

 

Would your client's and manager be okay with Gentoo? Install that and then change the init to OpenRC. Now you have Gentoo and nobody gives a darn about the init. You could have saved yourself the headache and installed funtoo and just set the 'branding' use flag to on. Nice Gentoo openrc login page and nobody else is wise about it. ;)

 

 

Okay Lennart. Jokes over. Go back to RHL and quit trolling the funtoo forums.

 

 

Well one of the key points of Funtoo is the anti-systemd approach. Everything is working well without it. Why would anyone want to pollute this OS? I'd put Funtoo up against any systemd based distro and we can compare performance and reliability. No doubt who the winner will be.

 

One thing I learned is it's hard to fight a distro that isn't moving in the direction you want. It would be much easier for you to move to Gentoo or a systemd based distro then stick to Funtoo. I fought systemd in Debian testing and there was virtually something new to weed out on a three times a week basis. I gave up and came to Funtoo and have no regrets. If Debian dumps systemd tomorrow I'd still stay with Funtoo. The core group in charge of this distro are top notch.

 

What functionality is OpenRC lacking exactly that you need on a daily basis for your personal use or server use?

 

By your own admission it boots fast, get's the job done and is easy to use....but since other distributions decided to be wreckless and make the switch you think you need to do the same too?

 

Sounds like you want to switch for the 'sake of fashion'.

 

As far as upstream distributions? There are a few that still have it as an option. Arch/Manjaro comes to mind. My 2nd favorite distro behind Funtoo at the moment is this one: http://sourceforge.net/projects/manjaro-openrc/files/15.09/xfce+ob/      IMAGES

 

So, is this how we discuss technology?... Please, keep your opinions technical, if possible.

 

No, I haven't read the code for SystemD. While at it; confessing, I haven't read the code to the Kernel nor Python; and I use them. That doesn't mean I don't trust the software. There are hoards of people working on it, openly, and that makes me trust the code. Same goes for SystemD. Besides, I've used it and, in my experience, it has worked pretty well. Not only for init things, but for containers and resource management; as well as logs and stuff. 

 

I do not work for Red hat. I have maintained a few packages on Fedora, though, for quite a while. 

 

It is OK to consider any piece of software "pollution"; but it's not OK to prevent users from using it. I mean, we have java in the repos... 

 

What OpenRC lacks for me is the resource management part with cgroups. Also, the logging system in SystemD is really cool to have. Besides that, I like containing web apps using SystemD units; for example, a ruby app or stuff like that. Those are some of the things I'd like to have that OpenRC doesn't provide, AFAIK.

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Sorry to reply to an old post, but just saw this ...

 

You are complaining that Funtoo isn't a serious alternative because its not like everyone else?  IMHO, its the ONLY alternative!  It's not much of an alternative if its exactly the same as everyone else.  And not giving you a choice?  Uhmm ... we aren't getting a choice from any of the mainstream distros, and they have way more resources to maintain different "choices".  I think you should bug them to support OpenRC!  That would be more fair.

 

As for why the other distros chose to switch, its because of systemd's practices (Embrance, Extend, Extinguish?  Anyone else remember that philosophy?) where it looked like they would have to maintain such projects as udev and policykit and Gnome by themselves because of systemd dependencies.  At the time the decision was made, that was the way it looked.  Now, thanks to a very few people (wish I could remember their names, they need to be thanked and sponsored) those projects have non-systemd ports.  We may get Gnome a couple months late, but we get it.

 

Funtoo is the brainchild of our BDFL ... if you trust him on the rest of the OS, trust him on this issue too.  In either case, its not a Democracy :)  You don't get to choose.  It IS Open-Source, so you could fork it, or back-port the changes to Gentoo and then run systemd all you want.    Just don't call it Funtoo if it runs systemd.   However, when it comes to drinking the systemd Kool-Aid or the Funtoo Kool-Aid, I choose Funtoo.

 

Nope, I am pointing out that I don't have a choice about my init system and that the lack of this choice, in particular, will aliniate any user that doesn't participate. You should, at least, have a choice of, what today, is becoming the industry standard init system, resource manager, loging solution and booting-watch-cha-ma-call-it. That's all. 

 

Well, you speak of things like if they happened unilaterally. Developers at work made their decisions and came up with, what they thought, it was the best plan. The result of SystemD taking over stuff is just a consequence of devs thinking it is the best option. I am happy to trust them on that.

 

Yes, I know. I do trust him and I am not pointing a gun at anybody. I am just expressing my opinion; as you are. I truly think that Funtoo should allow and support SystemD; while favoring whatever Funtoo likes. That's all. It will be easier and people that hate it can still say they hate it. Win <-> win, huh? ;)

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Nope, I am pointing out that I don't have a choice about my init system and that the lack of this choice, in particular, will aliniate any user that doesn't participate. You should, at least, have a choice of, what today, is becoming the industry standard init system, resource manager, loging solution and booting-watch-cha-ma-call-it. That's all.

 

Well, you speak of things like if they happened unilaterally. Developers at work made their decisions and came up with, what they thought, it was the best plan. The result of SystemD taking over stuff is just a consequence of devs thinking it is the best option. I am happy to trust them on that.

 

Yes, I know. I do trust him and I am not pointing a gun at anybody. I am just expressing my opinion; as you are. I truly think that Funtoo should allow and support SystemD; while favoring whatever Funtoo likes. That's all. It will be easier and people that hate it can still say they hate it. Win <-> win, huh? ;)

Nope. Supporting systemd means supporting two versions of all the things that systemd had polluted. Why should Funtoo give you a choice when none of the major distributions do?

 

And again, I don't care what everyone else does. I don't use bind for DNS. I was one of the first to stop using sendmail. I was a very early proponent of Linux. I've never done what everyone else does, and the Linux community hasn't really followed such a mindset in the past.

 

You assume that the switch to systemd was made because its better, and not due to duress. And from what I saw that's not what happened. Debian is a great example. The history of the rift there is all open for reading.

 

Again, you are free to run it on your system, but no one here wants it and any support means slicing more time from already overworked maintainers. Redhat has plenty of people, paid people, and they don't offer an init alternative. Why should funtoo?

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

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Option 3:

 

Is there a 3rd option? I thought funtoo was looking into revising the init system. It may be interesting to look at a set if goals that could satisfy the technical needs of both systemd and openrc users. I say 'technical' since API level compatibility with systemd for Gnome support or something might be useful, but simply doing it the way X does it (where X is systemd or traditional SysV Unix) should not be a factor ... only the actual benefits of an approach.

 

Obviously, such a thing would be a huge project, but I think we have the expertise to pull it off. Yet, I'm not even suggesting coding such a thing at this point, only a change from the current circular banter to what we propose an ideal init would look like.

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

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Nope. Supporting systemd means supporting two versions of all the things that systemd had polluted. Why should Funtoo give you a choice when none of the major distributions do?

 

And again, I don't care what everyone else does. I don't use bind for DNS. I was one of the first to stop using sendmail. I was a very early proponent of Linux. I've never done what everyone else does, and the Linux community hasn't really followed such a mindset in the past.

 

You assume that the switch to systemd was made because its better, and not due to duress. And from what I saw that's not what happened. Debian is a great example. The history of the rift there is all open for reading.

 

Again, you are free to run it on your system, but no one here wants it and any support means slicing more time from already overworked maintainers. Redhat has plenty of people, paid people, and they don't offer an init alternative. Why should funtoo?

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

Well, I don't see what is the problem with alternatives. We support exim and postfix, for example. There're a lot of options and this is just that, IMHO.

 

I assume that developers accross distros know what they're doing. I don't see anybody pushing anybody to adopt SystemD. I think you're assuming otherwise and I'd like to see some proof of that, if you have any.

 

I agree that the maintainers have a hard time and that they're overworked. I appreciate everything they do. On the other hand, it's their choice and they're up to the task. In fact, It might even prove to be simpler to maintain stuff instead of going overboard not supporting it and making everything still work; which is the case of Gnome, at least.

 

I don't agree with you speaking for everybody. Please, speak in your name only and let "everybody" speak for their own. It is not about what Red hat offers... it has never been about that. I don't think Funtoo keeps a tab on this.

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Option 3:

 

Is there a 3rd option? I thought funtoo was looking into revising the init system. It may be interesting to look at a set if goals that could satisfy the technical needs of both systemd and openrc users. I say 'technical' since API level compatibility with systemd for Gnome support or something might be useful, but simply doing it the way X does it (where X is systemd or traditional SysV Unix) should not be a factor ... only the actual benefits of an approach.

 

Obviously, such a thing would be a huge project, but I think we have the expertise to pull it off. Yet, I'm not even suggesting coding such a thing at this point, only a change from the current circular banter to what we propose an ideal init would look like.

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

Nice idea. It is a cool way of being constructive and it would solve a few issues. Thanks.

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Well, I don't see what is the problem with alternatives. We support exim and postfix, for example. There're a lot of options and this is just that, IMHO.

 

I assume that developers accross distros know what they're doing. I don't see anybody pushing anybody to adopt SystemD. I think you're assuming otherwise and I'd like to see some proof of that, if you have any.

 

I agree that the maintainers have a hard time and that they're overworked. I appreciate everything they do. On the other hand, it's their choice and they're up to the task. In fact, It might even prove to be simpler to maintain stuff instead of going overboard not supporting it and making everything still work; which is the case of Gnome, at least.

 

I don't agree with you speaking for everybody. Please, speak in your name only and let "everybody" speak for their own. It is not about what Red hat offers... it has never been about that. I don't think Funtoo keeps a tab on this.

Your own post is my proof. You said it would be easier to accept systemd rather than maintain changes to projects such as Gnome (which is another RedHat funded/controlled project I might add).

 

You act like it was extra work to remove systemd support from Gnome, like without the changes we'd have a choice. The opposite is true. Gnome is hard dependant on systemd and it was changed to allow a choice. So, your example is perfect. Gnome's reliance on systemd pretty much causes the distro to switch to systemd. Even if you don't install Gnome, the requirement for systemd in order to be able to run Gnome causes so many changes elsewhere (the main complaint many of us have) that you are basically strong-armed into a full systemd switch-over. Sadly, I like Gnome. Even anti-Gnome distros switch to 'jump on the bandwagon' as many have suggested.

 

Your line of thinking is exactly what happened and EASY took over rather than any technical merit. See Google for sticky details.

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

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Your own post is my proof. You said it would be easier to accept systemd rather than maintain changes to projects such as Gnome (which is another RedHat funded/controlled project I might add).

 

You act like it was extra work to remove systemd support from Gnome, like without the changes we'd have a choice. The opposite is true. Gnome is hard dependant on systemd and it was changed to allow a choice. So, your example is perfect. Gnome's reliance on systemd pretty much causes the distro to switch to systemd. Even if you don't install Gnome, the requirement for systemd in order to be able to run Gnome causes so many changes elsewhere (the main complaint many of us have) that you are basically strong-armed into a full systemd switch-over. Sadly, I like Gnome. Even anti-Gnome distros switch to 'jump on the bandwagon' as many have suggested.

 

Your line of thinking is exactly what happened and EASY took over rather than any technical merit. See Google for sticky details.

 

More about me at https://eddon.systems

I do not agree on the Gnome example, but let's leave it at that.

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