zogg

Hi,
From recent activity it seems like funtoo development (except autogenerated updates mostly) is getting to mostly none, including activity even in on this forum.
Can we get an update on the current state, what is the roadmap and future of the project?
And if I'm correct and funtoo project is declining, is there any plans to provide proper solution to migrate to gentoo without the need to setup everything from scratch.

Oops, I forgot to tell you how to set up next-release. You have two options. One is to use the stage3 to install a new next system. The other option is to convert an existing system to next-release.
To convert a system to next-release:
Do a world update on your system and specifically ensure you have the latest portage and ego installed. Add "release = next" to the "[global]" section of /etc/ego.conf Run "ego sync" Then run "epro build next". Now you are ready to do another world update to get gcc, binutils and other updates.

PLEASE NOTE: When you do this, unless you have a very very minimal system, I can almost guarantee that doing an emptytree rebuild WILL result in some packages not building. So be prepared for this and don't do this on production systems of course! Feel free to open bugs for any build failures, particularly for any DE or server packages that need gcc10 fixes.
ALSO PLEASE NOTE: We reserve the right to break or make disruptive changes in next-release AT ANY TIME! While I am going to try to do things as cleanly as possible, and ensure that the stage3 continues to build, you should be prepared for potential dep issues and other problems that may be annoying to deal with. This is part of the whole process of updating Funtoo that you are embarking upon!

Hi All,
I wanted to let everyone know about "next" release -- which is the new release of Funtoo that is intended to receive regular updates to all the latest packages.
Currently, a generic_64 build of next-release is available here:
https://build.funtoo.org/next/x86-64bit/generic_64/
'next' release currently includes gcc-11.2.0 and an updated unified binutils (binutils and binutils-libs have been combined, and binutils-config has been removed.) It also has a small handful of updated packages.
Our intention is to gradually add more and more auto-generated ebuilds to 'next' so that it is fully updated at all times. Next-release *may* break -- and if you use next-release, you should be aware of this. Right now, the stage3 is building but it's likely that DE's like GNOME, KDE, Cinnamon, MATE will need gcc10 fixes for certain packages to build properly. I'm hoping to generally keep the stage3 functioning at all times as we gradually update everything inside next-release to be current. We at least have a working stage3 as a starting point :) And it's fine to test DE's and open issues for any ebuilds that don't build -- so we can all start working on fixing them.
SO -- YOU CAN HELP!
So, since Funtoo is a user-based distribution, we provide a way for you, technical user, to help us in our goal of updating next-release. I am particularly interested in autogens for various ebuilds in the stage3. If you would like to autogen something on the stage3, all you need to do is open a bug at https://bugs.funtoo.org, entitled something like "autogen sys-apps/foo in next-release". Then describe what you would like to do and why. I think the most obvious candidates for autogens are stand-alone tools like gzip, for example, which are not libraries. These are the easiest initial candidates. Once your bug has been reviewed, it will be moved to a "ready to fix" state, at which point it will be possible to submit a PR to code.funtoo.org. Here are the steps to create a PR:
Create Funtoo account at https://auth.funtoo.org/new (you need this for the bug tracker and code.funtoo.org) Open an issue on the bug tracker (improvement) for the package you would like to autogen. Talk to us in #dev-help on Funtoo Discord for help in writing your autogen. When the issue moves to 'ready to fix', you are ready to submit your PR. To create your PR, first fork the kit-fixups repo on code.funtoo.org. Then on the bug tracker issue, click "create branch", and choose your forked repo (myname/kit-fixups) as where the branch will live, and make your branch a "feature" against master. Give your branch the name of the bug, like "feature/FL-9000". On your local system, "git pull; git checkout feature/FL-9000". Now do the edits... When creating your files, you can put them in kit-fixups/core-kit/next/sys-apps/foo, for example. This will make the autogen active for next release only. This is a good, conservative place to put it (rather than in 1.4-release too, which is what would happen if you added it to kit-fixups/core-kit/curated/sys-apps/foo.) When you're all done: "git add new files, git commit -a -m "FL-9000: description here." Then "git push", and you will see a URL on your console you can use to create your PR. Click on it, and create the PR against core-repositories/kit-fixups master. You may get comments on your PR -- you can simply do new commits to your "feature/FL-9000" branch and they will automatically appear in the PR without any additional steps when you push to your branch.

Also note that I have a bunch of issues I created for "funtoo-izing" various packages, which was my way of saying "autogen them and put them in next-release." You can find these bugs listed under this epic link (see the associated issues) and if you want to update any of these packages, you can simply "start work" on any of these bugs by clicking the "start work" button and then follow the steps above (minus creating the issue -- since you're using an existing one):
https://bugs.funtoo.org/browse/FL-8375

Thanks in advance for your involvement with next-release. This will be fun!
 

Linux, and Funtoo, are international. His (her?) native language (very likely) may not be English. Nor is mine ?  It also means (s)he may not be aware of 'social rules' that govern (online) conversation in English. And even so, discussions on the web always miss a vital component in human interaction: non-verbal communication. Body-language. Smileys, and by extension emoticons, are a way to circumvent this, but generally do a poor job, TBH.
 
To be frank, there is a valid point in his comments: not every Funtoo user is a coder. Not every Funtoo user wants to use Discord, let alone be online on it for 24/7, just to get the latest on the project. Not every Funtoo user tracks the latest issues on bugs filed on the bug-tracker. This forum is also a communication platform for the Funtoo project, as you obviously understand, but I notice it's not really treated as such as updates are not very frequent. Now, I understand you'd prefer working on patching code to improve Funtoo over posting updates here, but too little updates here ultimately leads to the above conversation.
 
Just me tuppence ?

Wait what?
I am missing the point? Okay, os you basically saying that creating autogenerated ebuilds and not breaking updates is stable? Kit based when same kits have outdated versions is stable?
So year+ old software would never have any vulnerabilities or bugs just because it "aged like wine?", did I get you correctly? Or maybe you also do not include those bugfixes and CVE fixes?
How do you decide what updates are matter for user? 
Stability is not updates that are not breaking, stability is decent versions while the point of distro and  it's maintainers to provide the stability of update. Yes as I said stability of OS != stability of update and it comes from different factors.
And by innovation I do not mean latest software. It seems you hear what you want to hear and just advocating without actually trying to understand.
Making old releases from source based distro you call not stable is not innovation for sure. Let me give you an example of what innovation Funtoo brought -> kits, git based updates instead of rsync and etc. So basically when Gentoo caught up, what you provide except copying ebuilds from there or autogenerating them and "freezing" "stable" releases by not updating anything else is the point?
Btw any non rolling release distro has schedule for releases, they have them at least once a year, they do have unstable branch where people test, iron things and afterwards you have code freeze and etc.
In your case you do not have any of that but just barely any maintainers and few scripts pulling for some ebuild autogeneration.
So again, what is the roadmap? What is the future of funtoo? How often and when we can see releases? What are mechanisms of having stable releases except not updating anything. 
it's just sounds you doesn't want to hear some critics and let's agree with explanation and actual arguments and you just want to point out how I don't understand anything.
You can tell me the most ridiculous answer "Funtoo is not for you" and have barely 5 people active in forums and community and pst autogenerated same as those ebuilds - this is very smart i would tell, no users - no problems ?

☝️
There are so many packages that are outdated, e.g. xfce4 whole kit is old, a lot of packages are not updated. I am not sure that autogeneration and copying ebuilds from gentoo is "active".
Moreover gentoo has bumped EAPI already and new ebuilds are not compatible with Funtoo

Hi, first of all thanks for answer.
First of all it is interesting that you go on offense as defense and state that my questions are trolling :)
I mean common, did I blame you that manpower of the project is much smaller than gentoo? I do not think in any way that you or anyone here own me anything, all of all I'm trying to understand the state and if I (maybe others who share same feeling) need to worry or re-calculate path if Funtoo is for them.
Moreover I am the one who stated the shortage of developers in the first place, but somehow your answer is still that offense that I'm trolling and not just asking legit question to understand the state.  
And it is not like you do not understand where it come from as you are saying yourself that despite that you do not agree but you do understand where this "perspective" comes from.
Funtoo was always smaller project that Gentoo, and despite it I used at both home desktop and work laptop for quite few years already and I do feel as part of community (despite of me contributing or not) I have all right to raise those questions.
Common, I do remember the activity on git, forums, IRC and other channels back when Oleg was one of core developers and suddenly for over year (again I do understand not simple time in general with Covid around) there is no visible activity, no roadmap (outdated page) or anything that I can see where Funtoo is going(not on discord so no idea what is going on there). It is natural that I would worry, or maybe the transparency is not the same as it was and it is much harder now to understand/follow. So why not just help users to understand. Btw I might be not one of the most active ones, but I've been around this project for a looooooong time, so if I fail to see it, maybe there are much more people like me who just don't raise their voice (so they would not be called trolls, right?)
 
You do state that you want to encourage users to get involved, but on same breath you are saying that "maybe Funtoo" is not for me instead of just maybe to clear things that I can't see/understand for some reasons.
E.g. you stated about Sabayon collaboration and I saw it on here and few other resources some time ago, but personally, maybe I'm missing something - but I fail to understand where/how/what for it is happening and how it is influencing future of Funtoo (today and the moment it was announced).
So are you still thinking I'm trolling or it is just emotional and it is easier to blame on trolling rather to answer actual questions, as an example I tried to raise what is the purpose, difference and roadmap of Funtoo and as I mentioned above you stated "use Gentoo" "maybe Funtoo is not for you" instead of simply taking into account that some users might fail to see the actual difference or purpose and you as Leader of project and developer can simply point it out and not say "use latest crap" Or you are saying that there is no actual vision and you just going with the flow, because it is hard for me to understand how it is possible to state it is different, but fail to explain actual difference or purpose.
 
I didn't understand @nrc as he didn't answer any question, he used the approach "you do not understand" ," you can't see" and offense as defense instead of actually trying to explain and not using generic statements "create reliable distor that works for users" as I think any maintainer of any distro will tell you the same, but I think most of them would be able to explain on how they are going to achieve it and not use just "Funtoo is the best" "so stable" and etc. Because if there is vision or roadmap on how to achieve it (as any project should have, even when it can be changed as they go) it should not be hard to state this vision/roadmap and connect those dots.
 
I am glad for team growing and as you say more active, collaboration and finally new release. Yes "finally" as end user this is the point that I actually can see and interact with, so do not take as something negative, as I do really appreciate any contribution to any project even if I do not use it and I value when any person gives his own free time for others.
I did try to check git sometimes, check forums, telegram (though I saw mostly people are using language that not everyone can understand) and I didn't see any activity, so maybe some transparency, roadmap or more updates where project/community can help and avoid this kind of post in future.
 
And though questions I raised maybe are not the most pleasant for some I do not see any reason to attack me back and call me troll or act @nrc did. I do not think it is something you want in your community. That kind of community that is based on "if you like anything you get" we give you "+" in forum and system, but if you raise any questions you are "traitor of Soviet Union" and you would be punished with "-" and called troll. I hope this example can show it more clearly about another "perspective" I'm talking about. And maybe it is not Funtoo but the way the community/leadership is communicating is the problem for me after all.
 
P.S. Kuddos for new release 

One more thing to consider: not everyone wants to use Discord.

If you  check the Jira bug tracker or Discord site things are reasonably active.  I think the "roadmap" is "keep making Funtoo more current and more maintainable."  All the work that has gone into kits and now autogen packages has made a big difference in that respect.
@drobbins pondered whether a forum was still necessary and relevant the last time he revamped the site.  I felt at the time it was still important to provide that visible, easy gateway into the community for new people.  But it just doesn't seem to be the kind of center of activity for the project that forums used to be so maybe it doesn't represent the project well.
 
 

But you obviously didn't ,except mumbling some generic things and trying to make it to "Funtoo is obviously not for you then" and "you do not understand" arguments with "matter for user" on top as I am not a user already, so I do not matter ?
Let's make it easier, so you would not dodge with "I already answered":
I mean all your effort fails to point what is actual roadmap, official Roadmap and FAQ are outdated and have information that is not correct for the past 2 years.
You fail to point out what is "stable" and if Funtoo is not rolling release, where are release cycles for past 2 years. (you can't be neither and say that autogens is your stability and releases)
And Discord that is closed as mentioned above is no help but I can see git commits and do not see much except autogeneration commits in 90% and not that often ?‍♂️
But yes "Much discord, wow autogenerate, so stable" ?‍♂️
 
P.S.
It's when fan advocate has nothing to say but can't give up, right? ?

Hi,
From recent activity it seems like funtoo development (except autogenerated updates mostly) is getting to mostly none, including activity even in on this forum.
Can we get an update on the current state, what is the roadmap and future of the project?
And if I'm correct and funtoo project is declining, is there any plans to provide proper solution to migrate to gentoo without the need to setup everything from scratch.

And to expand on this some more --
While it's true that we don't have a dedicated security team and rely on users to report CVE's, this doesn't mean that we trail behind Gentoo in all areas. For example, we have a fix in gettext for CVE-2018-18751 that gentoo does not appear to have. We also had important fixes for avahi remote exploits before Gentoo.
In general this means that our ability to be up-to-date with CVEs depends upon our users' ability to report these. In areas where we have had good reports, we have sometimes had things fixed sooner.

@lazlo.vii  You know, it will be much better if you at least try to be polite, right?
@drobbins Back to the topic - if you want to get more and more involved into funtoo dev - isnt it better to have current/dev branch? If you want devs, isnt it a must to have at least dev branch,where they can work with ?!

I mean, some of the major distros release based models have that :
 - Debian has unstable/sid -> testing  ... -> stable release major/minor releases
 - FreeBSD has current -> release -> .. stable

I still don't get it with removing current branch. Do releases, implement whatever process you think its best for you.
But keep the current. Or, explain how it can be done.

About doing smth, well, some do, me included. Small, but here and there.
The question is more about the direction things are going.
We all know release model is much easier than rolling distro. One of the reasons I jumped on Gentoo/long time ago/ then on Funtoo is the rolling model. Some of the others are that its source based, slots, alot of customisation/flags ... etc.

My point is - today you decide to switch from rolling to release, eg no current, just freezed releases. Tomorrow nothing stops you from source based to package/bin oriented ? Maybe Debian clone /one of dozens/ ?

Dont get me wrong. I use funtoo not geeky weekends, where I can spend whole day install/reinstall/fiddle with this or that. My workstation is build on Funtoo. My work depends on Funtoo. If some1 decides to flip a coin and make a decision, when I am not sure about the general direction ... 

I can install a Debian/Manjaro in minutes, but I dont want to. I want Funtoo as it was for years - just to have current.

We are not doing rolling release for the following reasons:
Too much time is spent on fixing various breakages coming in from Gentoo, which takes time away from other things... other things are more important such as new technology like fchroot and the upcoming containerization solution... If users are interested in certain packages being updated, I am encouraging them to submit a pull request and maintain these ebuilds themselves, so I am going to focus on helping YOU maintain ebuilds rather than have a few people (this has generally been Oleg) maintaining them for everyone. This model doesn't scale -- we all need to do a little bit rather than a few people doing a lot. See the YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmOY6p3c9hxv3vJMAF8vVw for tutorials Short-term, this means development slows down. But in reality, it will speed up development greatly. For those hanging out on IRC, you know that Oleg who has helped to maintain Funtoo for years has moved on to a new chapter in his life, so he is no longer active on Funtoo. But even though I am not slaving away over here, thanks to incoming pull requests Funtoo is continuing to move forward and be responsive to user needs.
So think of it as a course correction as we become more agile and community-oriented, and be part of the solution. If you are reading this, it means you are part of the Funtoo community and just as able to contribute to Funtoo as anyone else (maybe with some tutorials/videos to help).
When I work on technologies, I am trying more to work on key tools that help the community be more productive (like fchroot) rather than focusing on specific ebuilds, which I am leaving to the community to manage using pull requests.
Best,
Daniel