zogg

Again, I am not coming with attitude of someone owning anything to me. I do not ask anyone to prove me anything as well. I think you are taking it as white&black situation here, but community is more of co-existing dynamic thing and communication and interaction is one of the keys of it to evolve. I did check code.funtoo.org and I did see a lot of autogenerated commits, thus btw I stated that most activity I saw was autogenerated. I even checked few branches and most "human based" commits were back from Oleg. (that raised the red alarm for me) So regarding roadmap and being part of the community: 1. You do have roadmap page on main site (the link was removed now but you still can get there) - and it has information from 2019 and even "Lorem ipsun" entries ?‍♂️ 2. AFAIR you did provide funtoo hosting as paid service and I think it would be fair for people who do pay for it to understand where project is going so they do not find their own project depend on it and they need to migrate as as some point it goes different direction. 3. No one asks to provide exactly "what I want" but it is fair that any user would be able at least at rough scale understand where it is going. For example as I told I was using Funtoo on my work laptop and was depending on it, so it is not only was a "nice project I take part of" but something that I depend on to be productive at my work place. Again you do not own me anything, but I think it the choice of using something that can be that critical is the question if I know where the project goes and if I can do it (you embraced it yourself above to use it as workstation). 4. Roadmap not always means exact dates and exact "promises" what would be achieved, but it is where you see your project is going, I mean you are talking about Jira and tasks as way to see it, but from what I know Jira usially have stories, epics and etc which actually show big picture and not tasks themselves. Moreover I am pretty sure you do not wake up one morning and decide to add something, rather than you have some vision on where you want to get. It is fair it is changing and this can be adjusted, but i think ability communicate it is not less important than code itself. For example person who can contribute but is not familiar with Funtoo will not be able to do so just by watching videos on how to make ebuilds and so on, he needs to see a bigger picture to make a bigger contributions, no? 5. Any community doesn't matter how dynamic it is has it's direction(s) and though they might change they do hold it together and not that everyone "pulling it in own direction, so at the end it stays still as directions are opposite" 6. It is harder to contribute where you fail to see where project is going Yes, it is not the pleasant thing to hear that "your project is dead" but again as an end user I didn't see any activity, e.g. I remember announcements of releases, I remember that we had newest chain tools, video related improvements (mesa, nvidia, gnome without systemd) and suddenly they were stalled, so this raised this flag, it doesn't come from nowhere. The question is if to use Gentoo or Funtoo shouldn't be offensive, it is simply practical one, I do understand how you can feel when you give your own free time while you do not have much, but you do it not for yourself, after all you have a site, you want to have community, you want it to be used and you want to build community. So you need to be practical and understand this kind of question would be raised, you need to understand that there is basis behind it and you actually trying to do something different from Gentoo (otherwise you would re-join back to Gentoo, no?) - so it is legitimate question. Moreover I think you do have something in mind and it would be more profitable for both sides if you communicate this. The important thing of any opensource project is transparency and direction. As you gave an example of corporation backed up projects, they usually had own internal tracker and they threw code from over this fence, where community was not able to see where it goes and though code was open - people left those communities or forked projects, and it some point it killed those projects. As personal opinion - I saw and took part in a lot of opensource communities including ones that backed up by corporations or not and most of them (especially those that proceed) do have guidelines, documentations, transparency, roadmap, vision, what they are trying to achieve. This provides strong community, this helps end-users to became contributors and developers. So after all it is mostly an egg and a chicken situation where you state that Funtoo team is small and there is problem with time, on other hand you in some way make it more difficult for people to join and expand it. At least that's how I see it.

See my original post (mostly questions that was marked as "trolling") and see the first answer to be more clear of what I mean

Hi, first of all thanks for answer. First of all it is interesting that you go on offense as defense and state that my questions are trolling :) I mean common, did I blame you that manpower of the project is much smaller than gentoo? I do not think in any way that you or anyone here own me anything, all of all I'm trying to understand the state and if I (maybe others who share same feeling) need to worry or re-calculate path if Funtoo is for them. Moreover I am the one who stated the shortage of developers in the first place, but somehow your answer is still that offense that I'm trolling and not just asking legit question to understand the state. And it is not like you do not understand where it come from as you are saying yourself that despite that you do not agree but you do understand where this "perspective" comes from. Funtoo was always smaller project that Gentoo, and despite it I used at both home desktop and work laptop for quite few years already and I do feel as part of community (despite of me contributing or not) I have all right to raise those questions. Common, I do remember the activity on git, forums, IRC and other channels back when Oleg was one of core developers and suddenly for over year (again I do understand not simple time in general with Covid around) there is no visible activity, no roadmap (outdated page) or anything that I can see where Funtoo is going(not on discord so no idea what is going on there). It is natural that I would worry, or maybe the transparency is not the same as it was and it is much harder now to understand/follow. So why not just help users to understand. Btw I might be not one of the most active ones, but I've been around this project for a looooooong time, so if I fail to see it, maybe there are much more people like me who just don't raise their voice (so they would not be called trolls, right?) You do state that you want to encourage users to get involved, but on same breath you are saying that "maybe Funtoo" is not for me instead of just maybe to clear things that I can't see/understand for some reasons. E.g. you stated about Sabayon collaboration and I saw it on here and few other resources some time ago, but personally, maybe I'm missing something - but I fail to understand where/how/what for it is happening and how it is influencing future of Funtoo (today and the moment it was announced). So are you still thinking I'm trolling or it is just emotional and it is easier to blame on trolling rather to answer actual questions, as an example I tried to raise what is the purpose, difference and roadmap of Funtoo and as I mentioned above you stated "use Gentoo" "maybe Funtoo is not for you" instead of simply taking into account that some users might fail to see the actual difference or purpose and you as Leader of project and developer can simply point it out and not say "use latest crap" Or you are saying that there is no actual vision and you just going with the flow, because it is hard for me to understand how it is possible to state it is different, but fail to explain actual difference or purpose. I didn't understand @nrc as he didn't answer any question, he used the approach "you do not understand" ," you can't see" and offense as defense instead of actually trying to explain and not using generic statements "create reliable distor that works for users" as I think any maintainer of any distro will tell you the same, but I think most of them would be able to explain on how they are going to achieve it and not use just "Funtoo is the best" "so stable" and etc. Because if there is vision or roadmap on how to achieve it (as any project should have, even when it can be changed as they go) it should not be hard to state this vision/roadmap and connect those dots. I am glad for team growing and as you say more active, collaboration and finally new release. Yes "finally" as end user this is the point that I actually can see and interact with, so do not take as something negative, as I do really appreciate any contribution to any project even if I do not use it and I value when any person gives his own free time for others. I did try to check git sometimes, check forums, telegram (though I saw mostly people are using language that not everyone can understand) and I didn't see any activity, so maybe some transparency, roadmap or more updates where project/community can help and avoid this kind of post in future. And though questions I raised maybe are not the most pleasant for some I do not see any reason to attack me back and call me troll or act @nrc did. I do not think it is something you want in your community. That kind of community that is based on "if you like anything you get" we give you "+" in forum and system, but if you raise any questions you are "traitor of Soviet Union" and you would be punished with "-" and called troll. I hope this example can show it more clearly about another "perspective" I'm talking about. And maybe it is not Funtoo but the way the community/leadership is communicating is the problem for me after all. P.S. Kuddos for new release

But you obviously didn't ,except mumbling some generic things and trying to make it to "Funtoo is obviously not for you then" and "you do not understand" arguments with "matter for user" on top as I am not a user already, so I do not matter ? Let's make it easier, so you would not dodge with "I already answered": I mean all your effort fails to point what is actual roadmap, official Roadmap and FAQ are outdated and have information that is not correct for the past 2 years. You fail to point out what is "stable" and if Funtoo is not rolling release, where are release cycles for past 2 years. (you can't be neither and say that autogens is your stability and releases) And Discord that is closed as mentioned above is no help but I can see git commits and do not see much except autogeneration commits in 90% and not that often ?‍♂️ But yes "Much discord, wow autogenerate, so stable" ?‍♂️ P.S. It's when fan advocate has nothing to say but can't give up, right? ?

And just before you are giving unrelated generic answer ? From official FAQ:

And I do not see any innovations in Gentoo, I see they backported some ideas from Funtoo and they as well have newer ebuilds APIs. And let's put aside that they have stable mask and you do copy most from there, but still call them unstable. So what Funtoo can provide that Gentoo can't as it is based on Gentoo and should at least have something to say it is something new or better in anyway. Otherwise I see a lot of distros from Ubuntu that change wallpapers and call themselves - most stable and user-friendly (i am aware it is not same case here, but it seems you can't understand what I mean so I wanted to make it more understandable for you)

Wait what? I am missing the point? Okay, os you basically saying that creating autogenerated ebuilds and not breaking updates is stable? Kit based when same kits have outdated versions is stable? So year+ old software would never have any vulnerabilities or bugs just because it "aged like wine?", did I get you correctly? Or maybe you also do not include those bugfixes and CVE fixes? How do you decide what updates are matter for user? Stability is not updates that are not breaking, stability is decent versions while the point of distro and it's maintainers to provide the stability of update. Yes as I said stability of OS != stability of update and it comes from different factors. And by innovation I do not mean latest software. It seems you hear what you want to hear and just advocating without actually trying to understand. Making old releases from source based distro you call not stable is not innovation for sure. Let me give you an example of what innovation Funtoo brought -> kits, git based updates instead of rsync and etc. So basically when Gentoo caught up, what you provide except copying ebuilds from there or autogenerating them and "freezing" "stable" releases by not updating anything else is the point? Btw any non rolling release distro has schedule for releases, they have them at least once a year, they do have unstable branch where people test, iron things and afterwards you have code freeze and etc. In your case you do not have any of that but just barely any maintainers and few scripts pulling for some ebuild autogeneration. So again, what is the roadmap? What is the future of funtoo? How often and when we can see releases? What are mechanisms of having stable releases except not updating anything. it's just sounds you doesn't want to hear some critics and let's agree with explanation and actual arguments and you just want to point out how I don't understand anything. You can tell me the most ridiculous answer "Funtoo is not for you" and have barely 5 people active in forums and community and pst autogenerated same as those ebuilds - this is very smart i would tell, no users - no problems ?

You are talking about 1.4 which was released at 2019, no new release for 2 years. Not sure what you mean by infra and autogenerated packages, I mean having basic core generated is one thing and once configured would not require a lot, but maintaining and having own distro is little bit more than that, right? Regarding XFCE - again, you have official support (otherwise why do you have kit) and making RFE for supported kit to update for release that is out more than a year (last update was same story) seems little bit "hard way" to have basic things in desktop distro (again funtoo states as desktop distro, and official supported DE being outdated, not even mentioning most apps, is not the the way to go) Anyhow it only proves my original statement and raises the same question, what was developed and done on Funtoo on past year+ except maintaining autogenerated ebuilds? I assume there is no much manpower after Oleg and few left project, so would it worth to have latest gcc and toolchain on source based distro on desktop if everything else is pretty outdated if not "RFE" (except apps that I assume used by few devs left), as on server I would not care about latest gcc and not sure would go for source based distro anyhow. The approach "RFE it" or do it itself doesn't make it user-friendly, right? Otherwise I would use gentoo and RFE there or even just PR backport of Funtoo's ebuilds to update with autogeneration, as seems lately there is no any progress, innovation or benefit of Funtoo over Gentoo if not opposite ?‍♂️

☝️ There are so many packages that are outdated, e.g. xfce4 whole kit is old, a lot of packages are not updated. I am not sure that autogeneration and copying ebuilds from gentoo is "active". Moreover gentoo has bumped EAPI already and new ebuilds are not compatible with Funtoo

Hi, From recent activity it seems like funtoo development (except autogenerated updates mostly) is getting to mostly none, including activity even in on this forum. Can we get an update on the current state, what is the roadmap and future of the project? And if I'm correct and funtoo project is declining, is there any plans to provide proper solution to migrate to gentoo without the need to setup everything from scratch.

Hi, same as steam requires 32bit, wine requires 32bit for some application(or games in that matter, e.g. Battle.Net) So I created docker (basically same way steam one if made) and it seems to work. It would require wrapper to launch it and proper ebuild. I'm not sure if I'm going to continue working on it, but if anyone want to take over or play starcraft 2 ? https://github.com/funkycode/funtoo-wine-launcher - dockerfile https://quay.io/repository/funkycode/funtoo-wine-launcher - docker image to launch: # Make folder for steam data STEAM_DATA_FOLDER=~/wineData mkdir -p ${STEAM_DATA_FOLDER} # Update to your image if you want WINE_NVIDIA_IMAGE=quay.io/funkycode/funtoo-wine-launcher # Name of the container to be used WINE_CONTAINER=wine-nvidia-${USER} nvidia-docker run -ti --privileged --name ${WINE_CONTAINER} -e WINEPREFIX=/home/wine -e DISPLAY=$DISPLAY -e PULSE_SERVER=unix:${XDG_RUNTIME_DIR}/pulse/native -v /tmp/.X11-unix:/tmp/.X11-unix -v /dev/shm:/dev/shm -v ${XDG_RUNTIME_DIR}/pulse:${XDG_RUNTIME_DIR}/pulse -v ${STEAM_DATA_FOLDER}:/home/wine ${WINE_NVIDIA_IMAGE} bash #example of how to launch battle.net in container (if it's installed, if not just downlaod it and copy to steam data folder and run wine inside container on that file) wine /home/wine/drive_c/Program\ Files/Battle.net/Battle.net\ Launcher.exe

I don't mind anyone checking my overlay or using it, but I'm not sure I want to maintain and take responsibility for that one, as I'm not sure I would keep using deepin or funtoo (already moved work laptop back to gentoo) P.S. I also update to latest LTS nvidia kernel modules (440.82) as I'm using 5.6 kernel from gentoo ?

I was able to adjust Gentoo overlay and using it as DE right now :) I have overlay, but I added some flags and packages manually and it might require some instructions

If you need to report most of the things — it is kinda doing it yourself. It is fair to tell that it's homebrew distro and noone owns you anything. But if you advertise your distro asstable and that it can be used in production, regardless of it being free or not — you need to provide certain standards. There is a problem of small group of maintainers in Funtoo and it's logical that it would not have all fixes and there would still be problems. The question is the % of the user input vs maintainers work. If there is need for all users to always report - it's not everyday stable usage (at least if you use it not at home as desktop env) It's not about newer (and gentoo has 9999 ebuilds, they are just hard masked). No one asks for the latests software that was released yesterday, but as mentioned above except vim there were barely any ebuild updates for more that few months. Even ubuntu which is LTS has newer packages. The question is the proportions and what distro advertise itself as. Sure not everything in gentoo compatible and requires some manual changes (can it be automated?), but this is exactly the problem of "why use all power that is already not enuf for new features and break compatibility with gentoo which resources can be used? Would not it make Funtoo good as idea and innovation comparing to Gentoo, but it will stay as an idea, while it will always have not enuf users/maintainer" or maybe innovate less and work on automatic gentoo merge into funtoo till it has own maintainers and more users, so it can be more independent from gentoo and can be tweaked even more. It all comes back to the roadmap and the calculation of your resources vs your plans in more realistic way.

I am not sure where and what builds were, but I trust 1.3 branch git commits history. And do not blame me of missing links to any bug report, as you obviously missed whole point of my post and cherry picking exactly things you want to answer to, while sticking to golang. I did contribute to Funtoo when I could (yes it was long time ago, when Funtoo just started and Martin and other guys was in core team), but currently I have less time and opportunity to do it. I did not report as I did not check what vulnerabilities golang or kubectl (somehow you did not comment on that one) have when I wrote the post (I work with those and I know there are some found this year). It was less important for me if they are vulnerable on Funtoo as in production I use golang docker images to build golang applications.

wrote previous reply before read yours :) in general I do agree with you, but I do not compare with Gentoo, I suggest to co-exist as with any other useful resources that can be used, that's it.

It was updated yesterday (I assume because of the post) to 1.12.x :D Before as I see from Januar 03 we had 1.11.4 which has vulnerability in link below, vulnerability was published at 24th of January, which gives us Feb, March + almost April till yesterday. https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-14185/product_id-29205/version_id-280874/Golang-GO-1.11.4.html Though my point is not specific software, but that switching release model doesn't make automatically everything perfect and stable (secure is stable in my opinion at 2019). I think that Funtoo has less maintainers and people contributing vs same Gentoo and instead of switching, as a solution thinking it would take less time and power to maintain system, while keeping it stable, would not resolve the issue. And as all work done in Gentoo can be utilized as well, maybe instead of more and more breaking compatibility (after all most of us came from Gentoo, which was also Daniel's creation) it can be used as experimental, current can be more stable and stable would have releases maybe with some LTS tagged once. The basic same idea of stable, masked, hard masked. Where power is thrown to automate the process of merge from Gentoo with patching what is needed. At least till the user base grows. Anyway it's just my opinion and for sure anything can suit everyone, after all it would be fair to tell me - "you want something different — you can always make your own", as it's easier to give critics from the couch :P

Same goes for golang AFAIK.

The latest update 5 months ago and latest version 1.13.2 — https://github.com/funtoo/nokit/tree/6f2923d531ffd96789bec3cebdb0249ec27bfe77/sys-cluster/kubectl As an example CVE that effects this version — https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2019-1002101/ I assume if you want to search you can find more :D

From my understanding anyone that is so concerned about stability should not use current masks and use stable ones instead. Telling that waiting for release for 6 months in case you need to fix something on your system (don't tell me that if it says stable it will be 100% perfect and bug free, especially if it's done by 1.5 person). As an example I have some 32 bit software I can't use with 1.3 release as no proper workaround is ready now, so it forces me to have chroot with new system I need to maintain as well for this 32bit software or being stuck on 1.2 which is broken (Oleg words btw) and just left to die as is. Meaning I have no security updates and using old system or I can update to half working which I never be sure when will be finished (if at all). So I'm not sure about what stability and "I don't want to fight with my computer systems, I want to use them" he was referencing. So what we have now is that latest Ubuntu LTS (binary based one) already has newer packages (including system/core ones). I'm not even sure if all critical CVEs are fixed by anyone on Funtoo (telling me I can do it - means exactly "fighting with your computer" btw). So it seems that stability means — don't touch as it is working? :D I really do not understand why not utilize Gentoo ebuilds that are built by much bigger community and reinvent new concept that requires much more man power and maintenance while much less people are now involved in any of this on Funtoo side. I mean, sure kits are great idea, but why not just prepare automation that patches/breaks gentoo portage into kits first and grow maintainers and contributors power first, instead of making plans for perfect release in long distance future ( if Funtoo will survive at all till then.) P.S. Community ebuilds - much worse than rolling release, as no QA there and look at yaourt as an example on Arch - it is such a mess of duplicated and messed packages with broken dependencies. So I'm not sure how stable and ebuilds done by community members who need tutorials to do it comes along

You are correct regarding contribution. Though my point was not about missing packages, but in general in the idea of switching to rolling release. It's obviously that after all @drobbins is doing amazing job, it's just the current idea of future updates does not suit me or/and some others. For me rolling release is the reason I was on Gentoo and after that Funtoo for about 15 years and it is natural that such change is something that would make me consider if this is the way I want to go. And I did contribution to Funtoo , small but still... As today I have less timne and opportunity to hack around and break my work setup especially :(

To be fair enuf, it seems little bit confusing "new technologies" and slow updates. In order to maintain own packages (hello also dependencies of those packages) by yourself + few pull requests from other people vs gentoo community - it would be funny to maintain yourself whole distro (are we LFS now?). Or to bump you for each build and wait for your response. (after all we'll get messy yaourt as in arch with lists of half dead overlays with duplicated and conflicting packages - yay stability \o/ ) It's pity that new distro technology comes as price for new packages and up-to-date software. In other words - it is sad chapter and i think in order to gain stability for end user you would lose actually people who has enuf knowledge for people who is know how to copy paste from instructions without understanding ? here is from top of my head as I wanted to check AV1 support lately Funtoo / Ubuntu mpv 0.27.2/0.29.0(AV1 support comes here) chromium 71.0.3578.30/73.0.3683.86 Seems like for the past few months only update I saw in funtoo was vim version bumps ?

I am with you. It's pity that even Ubuntu gets newer packages than funtoo :(

Aren't you describing the whole idea of stable, masked and hard masked? or as in funtoo was stable, current and experimental? I think it was a reason I used gentoo and now funtoo. Current was stable enuf or you could always mask yourself the package till update with fix will come out. On other hand you could just easily unmask still not stable package and if needed resolve dependencies, flag updates and etc if needed. Otherwise if the point of snapshots to give stability, what's the point of being source based at all? :)

Just happened to me on 1.3 o.O Moved /var/git/meta-repo and synced from scratch to resolve the issue