uudruid74
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Posts posted by uudruid74
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Already mentioned what was wrong with the Red Panda. You are looking for a symbol. Symbols have meaning, beyond just 'Awe that's cute'. If the symbol you use already has strong meanings in the person viewing the symbol, then you should intend for that association to be made in the persons mind.
Do you intend to associate Funtoo with communist China?
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Sorry to reply to an old post, but just saw this ...
We do not use it. We consider it trash. We, also, alienate ourselves from the rest of the industry and become something totally different; which makes it really hard to be considered as a serious alternative OS for the aforementioned. One can, always, implement it as far as one can and use it wherever it is possible. It's, still, hard to convince my manager/client that Funtoo is awesome, though.
You are complaining that Funtoo isn't a serious alternative because its not like everyone else? IMHO, its the ONLY alternative! It's not much of an alternative if its exactly the same as everyone else. And not giving you a choice? Uhmm ... we aren't getting a choice from any of the mainstream distros, and they have way more resources to maintain different "choices". I think you should bug them to support OpenRC! That would be more fair.
As for why the other distros chose to switch, its because of systemd's practices (Embrance, Extend, Extinguish? Anyone else remember that philosophy?) where it looked like they would have to maintain such projects as udev and policykit and Gnome by themselves because of systemd dependencies. At the time the decision was made, that was the way it looked. Now, thanks to a very few people (wish I could remember their names, they need to be thanked and sponsored) those projects have non-systemd ports. We may get Gnome a couple months late, but we get it.
Funtoo is the brainchild of our BDFL ... if you trust him on the rest of the OS, trust him on this issue too. In either case, its not a Democracy :) You don't get to choose. It IS Open-Source, so you could fork it, or back-port the changes to Gentoo and then run systemd all you want. Just don't call it Funtoo if it runs systemd. However, when it comes to drinking the systemd Kool-Aid or the Funtoo Kool-Aid, I choose Funtoo.
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You don't have to say something directly to imply something. Perfect example, I mentioned the respawning of GDM ... an example of a bad practice and the particular mindset of systemd that I disagree with.Man, you are too defensive. You keep saying you're not dumb and all but I haven't found the part where they call you dumb. As I see it, you're the one assaulting g-j- while he, objectively, writes his opinion on things, backing it with code.
Please, do your best to defend your point in the same way or as best as you can. Bashing people gain you anything. Remember, respect is earned, not asked for.
To respond by saying, "Well, I figured out how to make it stop ..." 1 - Avoids the entire point. 2 - Implies that I couldn't figure it out. I think everyone in this thread can figure out how to make it stop, so ask yourself why such a comment was made if not the implication I noted?
And I don't need to see code at all. This isn't a debate. Once again, no one can give me any benefit to using it. It goes against my philosophy and what I think is right, and DEFINATELY goes against the atmosphere of free choice that the Linux community has enjoyed for the past 2 decades. Code is, s I said previously, an attempt to 'educate' me. This implies I need education. Every systemd supporter seems to think that I need more education if I don't agree.
Do you not see how patronizing that is? I don't need education! I can disagree!
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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EFI is fine, UEFI is a joke. And mine is broken. It actually looks for the Microsoft EFI file to boot and none of the standard locations so making dual boot means renaming the MS loader so grub can chain it and putting grub where the MS loader is at ... and any hiccup causes MS to replace its loader which clobbers grub. "Made for Windows8" Luckily, there is "Legacy Mode" and I gave up on dual boot anyway.I think you already know this, but you can do away with the bootloader for UEFI, with the CONFIG_EFI_STUB, and boot the kernel directly from the EFI menu, and compile in your command line arguments, but because of the way you wrote that I guess you don't like UEFI either.
About udev I would say I didn't see the need to put it into the systemd repo when it was being being widely used, and In fact was a shady and totally unnecessary thing to do that in the end only hurted systemd anyway, Kay Sievers is not anyones favorite person in the linux world anyway, it's a shame there was not other better hacker at dealing with the community to take the udev maintance(I think it was his project from the beginning anyway, I wish somebody else had made udev first I guess).
As for udev ... its had a long history. I only assume they have good reason for getting the kernel hotplug events as I can see a use for that in their "kdbus" scheme, but as you said, its been mismanaged.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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Invasive and growing. At this rate there will be only one Linux to choose from. Redhat.
The picture doesn't mention udev nor the new systemd-boot which now manages your system before the kernel even loads! I'm wondering how the old LinuxBIOS project is doing ... might be nice to replace my uefi bios with a slim Linux kernel :)
In defense of systemd, I understand the choice to include udev functionality and I likely would have done the same. It makes sense to be able to get the information directly from the kernel as an event source. But, none of the rest of userspace should care which udev you use nor should the original udev be changed. The fact that they saw fit to enforce their idea as the 'one true way' is wrong. They should emulated existing functionality and moved on.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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Its a shame you keep going. I use Funtoo because I trust Daniel and his decisions, mainly because we think alike on a lot of issues. I loved Gentoo in the early days, and realized that its decline was because they didn't listen to their founder. Basically, I followed Drobbins here from Gentoo. It was a lucky coincidence that we have similar views on systemd.I would also like to point out that is a shame that the most PR funtoo seems get is because its 'anti-systemd' stance, and even drobbins makes stupid threads just to mock systemd, I think funtoo has more than that and some really neat ideas, I would have liked to try and contribute more (Look at the 2nd most viewed thread in this subforum after the screenshots one, is the one with my wallpapers), but this kind of childish attitude, and some other critisim I won't state here discourages potential contributors, altought it might attract more users 'running away from systemd', and not really trying funtoo because they thought they might like some of the other neat ideas, than just putting effort to block a package from getting installed, wich is what the dev team really does I'd think they would be better and with less work if the policy was just non-solve an redirect to gentoo systemd bugs.
To insinuate that we came here because we hate systemd is just more of you lashing out. To do something like that would be childish, and you make this thread personal when you accuse people of childish things. You have a lot to learn.
We don't like systemd because we tried it and evaluated it on its own merits, ran comparisons, and studied its design philosophies and, based upon our experience and how we think a Unix system should be administered, we simply don't think systemd is a good choice. Worse yet, the supporters of systemd, like yourself, feel some need to attack people that don't support your view. You feel that if we don't like systemd, we need to be educated. Well, that's insulting in the extreme! How dare you assume we can't make our own choices?
And the systemd supporters like yourself, mainly due to pressure from Redhat (who's employee created this mess) are removing OUR freedom of choice. Linux had always been about choices and freedoms, and I VIOLENTLY oppose an initiative that seeks to remove the 'Free' from my 'Free Software'.
Give the rest of us some credit and quit pretending we're idiots. Go have fun with systemd, just leave the rest of us out of it.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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Perhaps you don't see the horrible irony of priding yourself on giving us the ability to run systemd in funtoo after we've told you how much we hate it, despise it, and think its a spreading virus ... and you want an award for spreading it to funtoo?But I contributed a repo for anyone that wants to try systemd and keep using funtoo, code not just rants, so does your argument stand?(I know it's outdated, but I didn't compromised to keep it working, and actually left a script for automatic sync with the changes to the funto overlay for the curious enough, I also plan to get some time to make the changes to epro to read profiles from overlays, this could not only be useful for systemd, but for other type of profiles), and I wasn't making personal attacks nor implying you were stupid(maybe stubborn), at least it was not my intention I was calling a lie a lie, no matter the person who said it, specifically the arguments "Bootctl is a replacement for grub" its a bootlader no more we have several around not only grub, and "You have to reboot as much as windows" or "Faster boots for more reboots" I'd like to actually put this to test (the longest uptime I can get)with the version of RHEL7, but power outages are quite frequent where I'm right now.
Think about that. Don't expect a thank you!
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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And FYI, comparing the init logic and saying its only 2K lines and sooo small ... its still 1.6MB compared to 37K for funtoo's init. So who's shoveling the BS? That's how many times larger? A few orders of magnitude
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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These are the lies or exaggerations whatever you like, I've had that problem with GDM failing, and had no problems finding out how to fix it(emergecy target), and lost no logs at at all, I run fedora on a 32bit mini-hp and gdm doesn't work, so I had to use lightdm, had no trouble changing that using systemd tools.
Here another:
But systemd isn't a monolithic binary doing everything, And uses several programs in combination to get the job done, and I'd think they were referring to the difference between having a separation of hardware, operating system and tools, to what I've read was the norm back then hardware + specific os or program bundled togheter, the fact that systemd uses IPC and not only stdin and stdout and pipes, is just a difference in the way those programs work together in my opinion, and some of its most popular and useful programs came out out of necessity as well (nspwan).
If you actually look at the code core.c(the systemd program PID1 ) Is ~2k lines[1]( I know sysvinit's init.c in the end is smaller and doesn't have as many includes, but the logic of how the init works is still less than 2k lines of code not a big monolithic thing)
Look at other init programs lenght counting the files that get compiled and contain the logic for the init:
FreeBSD(init.c 1.7K LOC) [2]
OpenBSD(init.c 1.5k LOC) [3]
sysvinit ( init.c[2.9k] + utmp.c[~250] + init.h [~100] + init_req.h[~100] + paths.h [~100] + set.h [~20]) 3.5k LOC [4]
I'd have expected someone of the age you seem in your picture to be more mature, and actually comment something useful, a shame you lose your time making fun of people rather than spreading the wisdom you might indeed have.
I wasn't the one ranting about not being able to get logs and just pointing out that you can get even more logs than most want anyway, and I will repeat what has said over and over you CAN get your logs binary or plain Text, you can install another logger the one you have been using maybe?, and the fractions of second of extra latency this adds to logging doesn't really affect any service, and if you want to be real fast for any reason for some service, why logging to something as slow as a hard drive?
Anyway, lets not waste anymore time on this, the code is what will speak in the end, these flames will just be space wasted in some server.
Please stop. There are no lies nor exaggerations, just relations of personal experience ... from highly experienced people no less. For example, I'm not a moron and I can make GDM stop respawning! SO, instead of insinuating that I'm too dumb to make it stop, I obviously had some other point I was making.
My point is that only systemd seems to think that this is a good idea! Even systems that (erroneously IMHO) respawn a service that dies, will refuse to do so without limits on the rate. This is absolutely dangerous and can bring a system to its knees. What if it died due to low memory? Running it again could cause something ELSE to die. If I wanted automatic service respawn, I'd have Nagios do it and it would be done right, and it would never respawn twice in 10 minutes, and would send me a text every time it did, with additional limits per hour/day/etc.
The auto restart of services shows the mindset of the systemd developers. Us old Unix admins want to find the problem, fix it, then start the service ourself. Systemd tries to be "easy" and basically 'reboots' the service. Its Windows oriented thinking!
Your constant use of personal attacks shows us you are frustrated because you have nothing relevant to contribute. Please stop calling everyone liars. Its not helping your argument.
As for logs, I don't understand why you pretend its not an issue when you can just read the bug report that the logs get corrupt. And how compatible is all this with syslog? I want all my logs on one machine and when something goes dead, I read it on the log server. Does journalctl filter by machine? Or can systemd even handle syslog content from another machine without sending it through syslog?
But I can install another system log to get the features I want ... wait ... Why would I switch to systemd which tries to take over a service, just to proxy it right back to the service that was supposed to handle it in the first place? You are building a house of cards with your server. You say systemd is modular, but your definition is different than mine. In my book, modular means that when my SATA drive dies, I can replace it with another from ANY vendor. Systemd is locking out the alternatives and so we can't easily replace those modules. Thus, its NOT modular, but maybe sectional. It does not play nice with others and so it will be punished with exile.
Again, there is no benefit to using systemd, just stuff getting in my way. You talk of negligible latencies ... but what do I get in return for the latency? TROUBLE! Just dump systemd and use a real syslog.
When I hear systemd, I think of that Taylor Swift song ... "I knew you were trouble when you walked in ..."
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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Just because everyone else uses it doesn't mean I will. Everyone else used Windows95 too, and they also had about the same arguments.'I shouldn't need to learn new commands', but you learned the OpenRC commands and those had to be new to you at some point, coming from debian, or a bsd style init like Arch had, and you were asking me to solve a problem you had using my time to read stuff that's available for everyone to read, and of special interest for poeple like you( and me) that deal with computers, and to give you a detailed solution, we are discussing about software here not giving free support. That's why I said it was your problem. I know you do know the commands and in fact are knowledgeable about a lot of stuff I've read some of your post in the forum.
I'm just being ralistic here, systemd has come to stay for some years at least in the linux ecosystem, and just buring your head in the sand and wanting pretend it's not there, and having an 'anti-systemd' attitude, will only cost you in your career, I like most of it, I won't defend it as the most clever solution anyone could ever have came up with, but It works, and as all the software has bugs, bugs will exist as long as software and human error exis. Anyway I guess in your case you will actually learn the stuff and rant in formus like this one, longing for the days of 'the true unix'
Peace.
I said NO, Linux is better. I'm not caving and 'its here to stay' is not a valid reason to use it.
And '/etc/init.d/myservice start' works on most Unix systems. Its only systemd that changed that. Gentoo wasn't much of a learning curve and it didn't FORCE me. I even had other options and these did not affect the rest of the system. Normal sysV commands were wrapped and worked.
Some day there will be something better, but not today.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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No, but you are pretending that I don't already know these things and making it personal. Your English wasn't the issue. The fact is that the procedures that SHOULD work, don't. In spite of the fact that I shouldn't need to learn new commands, I have, and they fail.adding a 1 to the kernel command line is the way I've done it, I won't read documentation for you when I'm not needing it, It can be done, I know how to read manuals, I can do it, I just don't need to do it often, I have configured my boot process to regularly fsck my drive anyway.
The comand to switch to the emergency target would be systemctl isolate emergency.target, again you not wanting to learn systemd, and thus making yourself wrong ideas is not my problem it's yours, I will be able to handle any system that comes my way, you won't because you are reluctant to learn.
PD: don't get caught by the nuances of my english, It's not my first language and in fact mostly self-learnt, I also don't like to pretend I know it all.
The worst is when I tell systemd to stop a service and it says it did. I change a config file. I tell it to start the service, and it says it did. But ... no new config? I finally saw the pid never changed. I killed the process manually and restarted it and it worked fine. I lost hours because systemd lied to me.
So, instead of answering my question on what value systemd brings, you make assumptions on my intelligence and my character and THIS is another reason I want no part of systemd. When asked why I need it, I'm told I must be stupid.
Stupid me will stick with OpenRC until something better comes along ... and systemd isn't.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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It can be done, If I'm not wrong, the emergency target is what you would be looking for, about a year a go I asked if you could even do a split of a system that would have everything in one partiotion into /usr and root partitions, WITHOUT a reboot, while running systemd, It can be done, I didn't try it, but got the most knowlegable guy about systemd at the gentoo list(Canek) to give it a try, turns out you can jump back and forth betweeen the systemd you have in the initramfs and your real system, and can change a lot of stuff, an fsck would be easy.
Anywhere else
init S
You are telling me you don't know how either? "Would be easy" doesn't have the same effect as "The command is ..." In fact, "would be" sounds kinds iffy to me. This is pretty basic stuff. And if I have to ask an 'expert' just to get into a rescue mode that will actually let me check my filesystems ... something is very wrong!
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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In any modern system facing the internet, not upgrading a kernel weekly is just hoarding kernel bugs to be pwned IMHO, I would prefer to design something reliable that can be resilient if one system fails, so doing a reboot is no problem at any given time. I was talking about my desktop system.
In my view, memory constrains won't be an issue in embedded when you get to the 10nm scale, look at CHIP(The 9USD SoC) that thing is pretty small in physical size and you can definitely run systemd with plenty of space to do embedded stuff on it.
I'd also argue that a parser for ini-like files, would be much smaller and simpler, than a shell interpreter, so I'd put systemd and --enable-networkd when configuring the compilation, I in fact quite like the idea of a shellless system depending on what it's doing, exploits that run /bin/sh after breaking a arbitrary code execution vulnerability, it would be pointless, and would just end up in a crash.
Internal network, not facing Internet. And even if it was, its double-NAT, one on my end (a Cisco ASA) and the other done by the ISP.
You upgrade your kernel every week? There are weekly bugs that allow remote root access in the Linux kernel? Either the kernel devel team has gone to shit in recent years or you are straight up lying. Kernel issues that allow remote root (PWND? Are you 18?) are incredibly rare. The problem is almost always userspace. The last big one was blamed on bash, but was really idiots using bash to process CGI and not untainting properly ... totally wrong tool for the job and running user input from the web into your shell and executing it is so stupid ... I don't have words.
Parsing systemd files faster than the shell? We could argue this for days, but its never going to be a noticeable difference and you took away part of my control ... and have me what in return? A microsecond faster boot? That's not a trade off I care to make. I don't upgrade my kernel every week and reboot all the time.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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I'm still not seeing all these benefits that I'm supposed to have. You took away the little bit of programmability I had with the shell and gave me back a config file and told me its for my own good and now I have to go learn all these new stuff from shifty documentation.
I never had a problem finding my boot logs. I do have a problem with systemd not letting me get to a true single user mode where I can fsck my partitions, let alone the root partition.
Seriously, exactly what benefit do I get? And don't point me to a website. I've read the propoganda, but in practice, its not there. Instead I have a 1.6MB init instead of the old 36K init, and a directory full of tools (all in the hundreds of K). And I hear I need DBUS just to start a service .... cause I need more dependencies in my startup?
Really, the small program mindset worked for Unix for the same reason OOP works, and why bastardizations of that philosophy are destroying computing. Encapsulation. With small binaries communicating through pipes the kernel enforces encapsulation and your API is stdin/stdout. Breaking encapsulation and enforcing dependencies is WRONG and systemd is all about enforced dependencies. I've been doing this too long not to see that this is a formula for a brittle system.
For what benefit?
I want LESS to break! KISS!
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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You have totally missed my point. I need to assign an IP address on an embedded system (yes, memory constrained like original Unix). I don't want systemd-networkd to be available. Telling me that its more efficient for systemd-networkd to parse its configs than it is for my shell to do it is nonsense. And why would I bother to learn this? It brings zero value other than I can't use the same syntax and command lines that have worked for 40 years.
And the binary logs get corrupt and they just ignore it. There is a 'wont fix' bug report on it. Blatantly ignoring data corruption! I run systemd on my laptop and I know what crap it causes. When I have time, Funtoo will go back on the system and I can tell you from direct comparison that Funtoo ran just as fast, and had fewer problems.
And you think uptimes of 2-3 weeks is good? I'd fire you. Before systemd uptimes were in years and then we asked what hardware component died.
I think a lot of people have come to funtoo to get away from systemd. You won't find much love for that cancer here. Linux had become sad ... systemd, advertising, Ubuntu forcing you to use a search and then sharing the search with Amazon ... and in general really poor code stability from bloated software.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
- johnnygarb and pr1vacy
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Oh yeah, systemd is literally everywhere. I installed a bare minimal Debian image on my BeagleBone and it has systemd! I need 'ifconfig eth0 192.168.12.200' in a script, not systemd. They said that systemd was more efficient!
Systemd now has systemd-boot and replaces grub, too! Its like the 'Nothing' from NeverEnding story, consuming everything
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Don't count on Sailfish as a selling point. The port is pretty, but I could never get WiFi working with the 'fixes' given and mobile is dead, camera is dead, etc. The early alpha that was up is more or less abandoned by the devel. Not much of a phone OS if you cant make calls :-)Ok I get it.
Never really played with X before. So just a Xlib.
I'll try it.
As far as the phone, I keep going back to the OnePlus One. I was looking at the Asus Intel phone, but just looked like a pain wth weird button placement.
Plus you can Install Sailfish OS on the OnePlus One.
Thanks
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They've sped up the boot time to make all the reboots you'll be doing faster! Sweet!
I've noticed that systemd is very bad about not being able to restart a service on my Sabayon laptop. It will say its stopped when its not, or will say its already starting when I say to start it, if X fails cause I attempt to try binary AMD drivers, it restarts GDM over and over so I can't log in to fix it, it seems impossible to get it to single user mode to fsck root. And it gets odd problems that I can never seem to resolve except with a reboot. The logs are always locked into a binary journal ....
Someone turned my Linux box into Windows! The people that like Systemd grew up on Windows and think rebooting the machine is acceptable. Rebooting doesn't fix problems, it hides them. You only reboot to replace the kernel and that's seldom necessary
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Ferrets have VERY sharp teeth!^ Hmm, well anything furry, looks cute, but has sharp teeth. So it kind of says: "Don't underestimate me".
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Oh and my recommendation on Phones is OnePlus One :-) Although there is a little known ROM that will knock the socks of Paranoid in terms of speed, battery, and stability.Yeah I am getting sick of i3 and tigervnc. They are headaches for me right now, after my recent rebuild.
I think i will try it your way. Running on a mac and android, so should not be a big deal.
Just broke my work phone, so looking for a new primary, thinking about something that I could run Paranoid Android on.
I want to do openvpn and ssh back to server. Just don't trust android to put my rsa certs on it yet.
Is there a good tutorial for headless X?
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You don't need headless X on the server, just Xlib. You only need X on the machine displaying the graphics. The machine running the app just needs Xlib.Yeah I am getting sick of i3 and tigervnc. They are headaches for me right now, after my recent rebuild.
I think i will try it your way. Running on a mac and android, so should not be a big deal.
Just broke my work phone, so looking for a new primary, thinking about something that I could run Paranoid Android on.
I want to do openvpn and ssh back to server. Just don't trust android to put my rsa certs on it yet.
Is there a good tutorial for headless X?
Headless X servers would be to do something like run Chrome on a headless server, have it render the page to an offscreen buffer then grab a screenshot. This works although may be faster with a video card since Web sites make use if hardware accelleration.
Normal X forwarding doesn't actually need an Xserver on the remote host.
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How about a Ferret? Pick some name that starts with F .. And then its Franciso the Funtoo Ferret ... Or whatever name
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My 2 cents on systemd
in General Discussion
Posted
And again, I don't care what everyone else does. I don't use bind for DNS. I was one of the first to stop using sendmail. I was a very early proponent of Linux. I've never done what everyone else does, and the Linux community hasn't really followed such a mindset in the past.
You assume that the switch to systemd was made because its better, and not due to duress. And from what I saw that's not what happened. Debian is a great example. The history of the rift there is all open for reading.
Again, you are free to run it on your system, but no one here wants it and any support means slicing more time from already overworked maintainers. Redhat has plenty of people, paid people, and they don't offer an init alternative. Why should funtoo?
More about me at https://eddon.systems