uudruid74

Nope. Supporting systemd means supporting two versions of all the things that systemd had polluted. Why should Funtoo give you a choice when none of the major distributions do? And again, I don't care what everyone else does. I don't use bind for DNS. I was one of the first to stop using sendmail. I was a very early proponent of Linux. I've never done what everyone else does, and the Linux community hasn't really followed such a mindset in the past. You assume that the switch to systemd was made because its better, and not due to duress. And from what I saw that's not what happened. Debian is a great example. The history of the rift there is all open for reading. Again, you are free to run it on your system, but no one here wants it and any support means slicing more time from already overworked maintainers. Redhat has plenty of people, paid people, and they don't offer an init alternative. Why should funtoo? More about me at https://eddon.systems

Already mentioned what was wrong with the Red Panda. You are looking for a symbol. Symbols have meaning, beyond just 'Awe that's cute'. If the symbol you use already has strong meanings in the person viewing the symbol, then you should intend for that association to be made in the persons mind. Do you intend to associate Funtoo with communist China?

Sorry to reply to an old post, but just saw this ... You are complaining that Funtoo isn't a serious alternative because its not like everyone else? IMHO, its the ONLY alternative! It's not much of an alternative if its exactly the same as everyone else. And not giving you a choice? Uhmm ... we aren't getting a choice from any of the mainstream distros, and they have way more resources to maintain different "choices". I think you should bug them to support OpenRC! That would be more fair. As for why the other distros chose to switch, its because of systemd's practices (Embrance, Extend, Extinguish? Anyone else remember that philosophy?) where it looked like they would have to maintain such projects as udev and policykit and Gnome by themselves because of systemd dependencies. At the time the decision was made, that was the way it looked. Now, thanks to a very few people (wish I could remember their names, they need to be thanked and sponsored) those projects have non-systemd ports. We may get Gnome a couple months late, but we get it. Funtoo is the brainchild of our BDFL ... if you trust him on the rest of the OS, trust him on this issue too. In either case, its not a Democracy :) You don't get to choose. It IS Open-Source, so you could fork it, or back-port the changes to Gentoo and then run systemd all you want. Just don't call it Funtoo if it runs systemd. However, when it comes to drinking the systemd Kool-Aid or the Funtoo Kool-Aid, I choose Funtoo.

You don't have to say something directly to imply something. Perfect example, I mentioned the respawning of GDM ... an example of a bad practice and the particular mindset of systemd that I disagree with. To respond by saying, "Well, I figured out how to make it stop ..." 1 - Avoids the entire point. 2 - Implies that I couldn't figure it out. I think everyone in this thread can figure out how to make it stop, so ask yourself why such a comment was made if not the implication I noted? And I don't need to see code at all. This isn't a debate. Once again, no one can give me any benefit to using it. It goes against my philosophy and what I think is right, and DEFINATELY goes against the atmosphere of free choice that the Linux community has enjoyed for the past 2 decades. Code is, s I said previously, an attempt to 'educate' me. This implies I need education. Every systemd supporter seems to think that I need more education if I don't agree. Do you not see how patronizing that is? I don't need education! I can disagree! More about me at https://eddon.systems

EFI is fine, UEFI is a joke. And mine is broken. It actually looks for the Microsoft EFI file to boot and none of the standard locations so making dual boot means renaming the MS loader so grub can chain it and putting grub where the MS loader is at ... and any hiccup causes MS to replace its loader which clobbers grub. "Made for Windows8" Luckily, there is "Legacy Mode" and I gave up on dual boot anyway. As for udev ... its had a long history. I only assume they have good reason for getting the kernel hotplug events as I can see a use for that in their "kdbus" scheme, but as you said, its been mismanaged. More about me at https://eddon.systems

The picture doesn't mention udev nor the new systemd-boot which now manages your system before the kernel even loads! I'm wondering how the old LinuxBIOS project is doing ... might be nice to replace my uefi bios with a slim Linux kernel :) In defense of systemd, I understand the choice to include udev functionality and I likely would have done the same. It makes sense to be able to get the information directly from the kernel as an event source. But, none of the rest of userspace should care which udev you use nor should the original udev be changed. The fact that they saw fit to enforce their idea as the 'one true way' is wrong. They should emulated existing functionality and moved on. More about me at https://eddon.systems

Its a shame you keep going. I use Funtoo because I trust Daniel and his decisions, mainly because we think alike on a lot of issues. I loved Gentoo in the early days, and realized that its decline was because they didn't listen to their founder. Basically, I followed Drobbins here from Gentoo. It was a lucky coincidence that we have similar views on systemd. To insinuate that we came here because we hate systemd is just more of you lashing out. To do something like that would be childish, and you make this thread personal when you accuse people of childish things. You have a lot to learn. We don't like systemd because we tried it and evaluated it on its own merits, ran comparisons, and studied its design philosophies and, based upon our experience and how we think a Unix system should be administered, we simply don't think systemd is a good choice. Worse yet, the supporters of systemd, like yourself, feel some need to attack people that don't support your view. You feel that if we don't like systemd, we need to be educated. Well, that's insulting in the extreme! How dare you assume we can't make our own choices? And the systemd supporters like yourself, mainly due to pressure from Redhat (who's employee created this mess) are removing OUR freedom of choice. Linux had always been about choices and freedoms, and I VIOLENTLY oppose an initiative that seeks to remove the 'Free' from my 'Free Software'. Give the rest of us some credit and quit pretending we're idiots. Go have fun with systemd, just leave the rest of us out of it. More about me at https://eddon.systems

Perhaps you don't see the horrible irony of priding yourself on giving us the ability to run systemd in funtoo after we've told you how much we hate it, despise it, and think its a spreading virus ... and you want an award for spreading it to funtoo? Think about that. Don't expect a thank you! More about me at https://eddon.systems

And FYI, comparing the init logic and saying its only 2K lines and sooo small ... its still 1.6MB compared to 37K for funtoo's init. So who's shoveling the BS? That's how many times larger? A few orders of magnitude More about me at https://eddon.systems

Please stop. There are no lies nor exaggerations, just relations of personal experience ... from highly experienced people no less. For example, I'm not a moron and I can make GDM stop respawning! SO, instead of insinuating that I'm too dumb to make it stop, I obviously had some other point I was making. My point is that only systemd seems to think that this is a good idea! Even systems that (erroneously IMHO) respawn a service that dies, will refuse to do so without limits on the rate. This is absolutely dangerous and can bring a system to its knees. What if it died due to low memory? Running it again could cause something ELSE to die. If I wanted automatic service respawn, I'd have Nagios do it and it would be done right, and it would never respawn twice in 10 minutes, and would send me a text every time it did, with additional limits per hour/day/etc. The auto restart of services shows the mindset of the systemd developers. Us old Unix admins want to find the problem, fix it, then start the service ourself. Systemd tries to be "easy" and basically 'reboots' the service. Its Windows oriented thinking! Your constant use of personal attacks shows us you are frustrated because you have nothing relevant to contribute. Please stop calling everyone liars. Its not helping your argument. As for logs, I don't understand why you pretend its not an issue when you can just read the bug report that the logs get corrupt. And how compatible is all this with syslog? I want all my logs on one machine and when something goes dead, I read it on the log server. Does journalctl filter by machine? Or can systemd even handle syslog content from another machine without sending it through syslog? But I can install another system log to get the features I want ... wait ... Why would I switch to systemd which tries to take over a service, just to proxy it right back to the service that was supposed to handle it in the first place? You are building a house of cards with your server. You say systemd is modular, but your definition is different than mine. In my book, modular means that when my SATA drive dies, I can replace it with another from ANY vendor. Systemd is locking out the alternatives and so we can't easily replace those modules. Thus, its NOT modular, but maybe sectional. It does not play nice with others and so it will be punished with exile. Again, there is no benefit to using systemd, just stuff getting in my way. You talk of negligible latencies ... but what do I get in return for the latency? TROUBLE! Just dump systemd and use a real syslog. When I hear systemd, I think of that Taylor Swift song ... "I knew you were trouble when you walked in ..." More about me at https://eddon.systems

ROTFLMAO! Thanks! I needed that. Been a long day ... week ... decade. Made me laugh

Just because everyone else uses it doesn't mean I will. Everyone else used Windows95 too, and they also had about the same arguments. I said NO, Linux is better. I'm not caving and 'its here to stay' is not a valid reason to use it. And '/etc/init.d/myservice start' works on most Unix systems. Its only systemd that changed that. Gentoo wasn't much of a learning curve and it didn't FORCE me. I even had other options and these did not affect the rest of the system. Normal sysV commands were wrapped and worked. Some day there will be something better, but not today. More about me at https://eddon.systems

No, but you are pretending that I don't already know these things and making it personal. Your English wasn't the issue. The fact is that the procedures that SHOULD work, don't. In spite of the fact that I shouldn't need to learn new commands, I have, and they fail. The worst is when I tell systemd to stop a service and it says it did. I change a config file. I tell it to start the service, and it says it did. But ... no new config? I finally saw the pid never changed. I killed the process manually and restarted it and it worked fine. I lost hours because systemd lied to me. So, instead of answering my question on what value systemd brings, you make assumptions on my intelligence and my character and THIS is another reason I want no part of systemd. When asked why I need it, I'm told I must be stupid. Stupid me will stick with OpenRC until something better comes along ... and systemd isn't. More about me at https://eddon.systems

Anywhere else init S You are telling me you don't know how either? "Would be easy" doesn't have the same effect as "The command is ..." In fact, "would be" sounds kinds iffy to me. This is pretty basic stuff. And if I have to ask an 'expert' just to get into a rescue mode that will actually let me check my filesystems ... something is very wrong! More about me at https://eddon.systems

Internal network, not facing Internet. And even if it was, its double-NAT, one on my end (a Cisco ASA) and the other done by the ISP. You upgrade your kernel every week? There are weekly bugs that allow remote root access in the Linux kernel? Either the kernel devel team has gone to shit in recent years or you are straight up lying. Kernel issues that allow remote root (PWND? Are you 18?) are incredibly rare. The problem is almost always userspace. The last big one was blamed on bash, but was really idiots using bash to process CGI and not untainting properly ... totally wrong tool for the job and running user input from the web into your shell and executing it is so stupid ... I don't have words. Parsing systemd files faster than the shell? We could argue this for days, but its never going to be a noticeable difference and you took away part of my control ... and have me what in return? A microsecond faster boot? That's not a trade off I care to make. I don't upgrade my kernel every week and reboot all the time. More about me at https://eddon.systems

I'm still not seeing all these benefits that I'm supposed to have. You took away the little bit of programmability I had with the shell and gave me back a config file and told me its for my own good and now I have to go learn all these new stuff from shifty documentation. I never had a problem finding my boot logs. I do have a problem with systemd not letting me get to a true single user mode where I can fsck my partitions, let alone the root partition. Seriously, exactly what benefit do I get? And don't point me to a website. I've read the propoganda, but in practice, its not there. Instead I have a 1.6MB init instead of the old 36K init, and a directory full of tools (all in the hundreds of K). And I hear I need DBUS just to start a service .... cause I need more dependencies in my startup? Really, the small program mindset worked for Unix for the same reason OOP works, and why bastardizations of that philosophy are destroying computing. Encapsulation. With small binaries communicating through pipes the kernel enforces encapsulation and your API is stdin/stdout. Breaking encapsulation and enforcing dependencies is WRONG and systemd is all about enforced dependencies. I've been doing this too long not to see that this is a formula for a brittle system. For what benefit? I want LESS to break! KISS! More about me at https://eddon.systems

You have totally missed my point. I need to assign an IP address on an embedded system (yes, memory constrained like original Unix). I don't want systemd-networkd to be available. Telling me that its more efficient for systemd-networkd to parse its configs than it is for my shell to do it is nonsense. And why would I bother to learn this? It brings zero value other than I can't use the same syntax and command lines that have worked for 40 years. And the binary logs get corrupt and they just ignore it. There is a 'wont fix' bug report on it. Blatantly ignoring data corruption! I run systemd on my laptop and I know what crap it causes. When I have time, Funtoo will go back on the system and I can tell you from direct comparison that Funtoo ran just as fast, and had fewer problems. And you think uptimes of 2-3 weeks is good? I'd fire you. Before systemd uptimes were in years and then we asked what hardware component died. I think a lot of people have come to funtoo to get away from systemd. You won't find much love for that cancer here. Linux had become sad ... systemd, advertising, Ubuntu forcing you to use a search and then sharing the search with Amazon ... and in general really poor code stability from bloated software. More about me at https://eddon.systems

Oh yeah, systemd is literally everywhere. I installed a bare minimal Debian image on my BeagleBone and it has systemd! I need 'ifconfig eth0 192.168.12.200' in a script, not systemd. They said that systemd was more efficient! Systemd now has systemd-boot and replaces grub, too! Its like the 'Nothing' from NeverEnding story, consuming everything Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Don't count on Sailfish as a selling point. The port is pretty, but I could never get WiFi working with the 'fixes' given and mobile is dead, camera is dead, etc. The early alpha that was up is more or less abandoned by the devel. Not much of a phone OS if you cant make calls :-) Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

I've noticed that systemd is very bad about not being able to restart a service on my Sabayon laptop. It will say its stopped when its not, or will say its already starting when I say to start it, if X fails cause I attempt to try binary AMD drivers, it restarts GDM over and over so I can't log in to fix it, it seems impossible to get it to single user mode to fsck root. And it gets odd problems that I can never seem to resolve except with a reboot. The logs are always locked into a binary journal .... Someone turned my Linux box into Windows! The people that like Systemd grew up on Windows and think rebooting the machine is acceptable. Rebooting doesn't fix problems, it hides them. You only reboot to replace the kernel and that's seldom necessary Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Ferrets have VERY sharp teeth! Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Oh and my recommendation on Phones is OnePlus One :-) Although there is a little known ROM that will knock the socks of Paranoid in terms of speed, battery, and stability. Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

You don't need headless X on the server, just Xlib. You only need X on the machine displaying the graphics. The machine running the app just needs Xlib. Headless X servers would be to do something like run Chrome on a headless server, have it render the page to an offscreen buffer then grab a screenshot. This works although may be faster with a video card since Web sites make use if hardware accelleration. Normal X forwarding doesn't actually need an Xserver on the remote host. Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

How about a Ferret? Pick some name that starts with F .. And then its Franciso the Funtoo Ferret ... Or whatever name Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Red Panda? Is Funtoo now the official OS of communist China? I dunno about the rest of the world but in the US, Panda is associated with China and Red is associated with Communism Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk