uudruid74
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On 11/29/2023 at 8:36 PM, aitikin said:
This has forced even worse misunderstanding. For me, it's forced freaking outrage to the point that I've yelled at the computer because I cannot figure out what the F*** I need to do and cannot find it in the forums and cannot find it in discord no matter how I go about searching.
I'm right there with ya man! I used to be the guy that wanted everything done my way, and funtoo was awesome at that!. The decision to not deal with systemd was one I was behind 100%. No bloat, no bullshit, use the tools YOU want and not what the distribution says you should. Screw Redhat and anyone else that wants to dictate what I run!
Now, I'm old. I'm tired of fiddling with stupid computer issues. I don't care how it's set up anymore! As long as everything works and doesn't have known security holes in it, it's perfect!
It's no fault of BDFL or anyone else that is keeping this project afloat. I totally get that they are busy as hell trying to keep everything going and aren't being compensated for the time they spend doing so. But, the knowledge of how all this is put together is really isolated to too few people and as the internals are "improved", there seems to be very little notice about the changes. The knowledge of how this all works needs to be more universal, and the state of the documentation is honestly generally pretty bad and outdated.
I remember Gentoo used to have a news thing where it told you of upcoming changes, security vulnerabilities, and all sorts of stuff. That was probably 25 years ago? I don't know if they still do that, but I think something similar would be a good first start at getting this information pushed out to people. Every emerge or ego or whatever could be pulling in unread notifications, distributed right with the ebuilds. By the time someone comes to the website to search the forums, it's probably too late.
The last update I tried to do broke everything. I couldn't figure out why something that was working fine before is suddenly spewing all over my screen. I came to the forums and find a big red announcement about how Funtoo 1.4 is no longer supported. That must be it! I look around for a version number and find a file in /etc that says I'm on release funtoo 1.4. Shit! I thought did the whole server rebuild thing a year ago! I have to do it again?? Come to find out, early versions of funtoo-next apparently had the old 1.4 version number in that file. So, false alarm! The correct way to get the version is some other tool and I have already forgotten the name. I would love to see some sort of single integrated tool that would allow you to configure all this stuff without having to remember all these different commands and file locations, maybe curses based or something. My brain is too close to capacity to keep this stuff in cache anymore!
They say "Ebuild is broken, report it in Jira". OK, Jira has a license issue! Now what? Exclude it and wait. What about SSH? Gentoo has an ebuild. How do I use it? Link to overlay guide. OK, tried that and it didn't see the new ebuild. Now what? How do I debug it? You might have to change the EAPI. No idea what that is! Change it to what? Why? How do I know if I need to or not? Silence. What to do about the python errors? Silence.
I find that the error messages are completely uninformative and much has changed since the documentation was written. But I need to keep this server up right now. I'm not in a position where I can just erase it and start over with a different OS. I had no idea of the mess I was walking into with a simple update. Funtoo makes me scared to update my system because I have no idea how many hours or days I'll spend trying to figure out WHY its broken and so I leave it the hell alone and don't do updates. This isn't good practice and I think it would advantageous to find some way of getting things a bit more stable. I think that is a real issue. People shouldn't be afraid to run an update!
Plus, the server is hosted by funtoo, so if I screw it up (like messing up SSH by breaking the ebuild) then I might be locked out of my server until I can find someone to fix it. I'm scared as crap! My laptop has a current version of openssh and I can't remember the last time I needed to ssh into my laptop.
But, here is the issue. I had to download, install, and configure openssh myself. I used to be the "NEVER EVER bypass the package manager!" kinda guy, but I can wget/configure/make and have a working and up-to-date package in a few minutes compared to spending days trying to figure out how to manipulate ebuilds and overlays and getting nowhere at all. How is the ebuild system helping me and not hindering me? It's become a big black box between what I need done and actually getting it done.
There needs to be some sort of user-friendly way to manage this stuff better or figure out what is going on in the system. It feels like a black box and the only way in is to read the source which could take weeks. It's a cool build system for developers, but I'm beginning to think it's just a bad idea. It seems to take more expertise than what is available.
At least JIRA is back up!
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I've been trying to do an update and I've got errors spewing all over about python. The system wasn't doing this months ago when I last updated. I do not think anything has changed, and I have no idea of where to start since I don't understand enough about funtoo internals. The decision to use funtoo was a decade ago and I have had little involvement since.
Can someone give some advice on how to fix this?
This is what I see ... (it goes on for pages!)
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Calculating dependencies... done!
WARNING: One or more updates/rebuilds have been skipped due to a dependency conflict:
dev-lang/python-exec:2
(dev-lang/python-exec-2.4.6-r2:2/2::core-kit, ebuild scheduled for merge) USE="" PYTHON_TARGETS="(pypy3) (python2_7) python3_9 -python3_10 -python3_7 -python3_8" conflicts with
>=dev-lang/python-exec-2:2/2=[python_targets_python3_7(-),python_targets_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_7(-),-python_single_target_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_8(-),-python_single_target_python3_10(-)] required by (dev-python/typing-extensions-3.7.4.3:0/0::python-modules-kit, installed) USE="" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_7 python3_9 -python3_10 -python3_8"
>=dev-lang/python-exec-2:2/2=[python_targets_python3_7(-),python_targets_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_10(-),-python_single_target_pypy3(-),-python_single_target_python3_7(-),-python_single_target_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_8(-),-python_single_target_python2_7(-)] required by (app-text/grip-4.2.0:0/0::text-kit, installed) USE="" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_7 python3_9 -pypy3 -python2_7 -python3_10 -python3_8"
>=dev-lang/python-exec-2:2/2=[python_targets_python3_7(-),python_targets_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_10(-),-python_single_target_pypy3(-),-python_single_target_python3_7(-),-python_single_target_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_8(-),-python_single_target_python2_7(-)] required by (dev-python/docopt-0.6.2-r2:0/0::python-modules-kit, installed) USE="-test" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_7 python3_9 -pypy3 -python2_7 -python3_10 -python3_8"
>=dev-lang/python-exec-2:2/2=[python_targets_python3_7(-),python_targets_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_10(-),-python_single_target_pypy3(-),-python_single_target_python3_7(-),-python_single_target_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_8(-)] required by (dev-python/zipp-3.12.1:0/0::python-modules-kit, installed) USE="" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_7 python3_9 -pypy3 -python2_7 -python3_10 -python3_8"
>=dev-lang/python-exec-2:=[python_targets_python3_7(-),python_targets_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_10(-),-python_single_target_pypy3(-),-python_single_target_python3_7(-),-python_single_target_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_8(-),-python_single_target_python2_7(-)] required by (app-text/grip-4.2.0:0/0::text-kit, installed) USE="" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_7 python3_9 -pypy3 -python2_7 -python3_10 -python3_8"
>=dev-lang/python-exec-2:2/2=[python_targets_python3_7(-),python_targets_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_10(-),-python_single_target_pypy3(-),-python_single_target_python3_7(-),-python_single_target_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_8(-),-python_single_target_python2_7(-)] required by (dev-python/path-and-address-1.1.0:0/0::python-modules-kit, installed) USE="" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_7 python3_9 -pypy3 -python2_7 -python3_10 -python3_8"
>=dev-lang/python-exec-2:2/2=[python_targets_python3_7(-),python_targets_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_10(-),-python_single_target_python3_7(-),-python_single_target_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_8(-)] required by (dev-python/importlib_metadata-6.0.0:0/0::python-modules-kit, installed) USE="-doc" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_7 python3_9 -python2_7 -python3_10 -python3_8"
>=dev-lang/python-exec-2:2/2=[python_targets_python3_7(-),python_targets_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_10(-),-python_single_target_pypy3(-),-python_single_target_python3_7(-),-python_single_target_python3_9(-),-python_single_target_python3_8(-)] required by (dev-python/markdown-3.4.1:0/0::python-modules-kit, installed) USE="" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_7 python3_9 -pypy3 -python2_7 -python3_10 -python3_8"
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And it looks like ncftp doesn't build. I've been using that program since the early 90s. I'm beginning to see I quit messing with this thing. 3 pieces of software that were just fine and now I can't even install them? Yeah, this isn't for me. I just want it to work, not spend half my life on the simple shit.
/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/11.3.0/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: bookmark.o:(.bss+0x20): multiple definition of `gBm'; gpshare.o:(.bss+0x0): first defined here
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2 minutes ago, uudruid74 said:
What happened to sshguard? I'm trying to migrate over an older container and its not finding an ebuild for sshguard on the new system. I know it existed before, and it's still in the install guide as a recommended install. Surely it wasn't abandoned? Where did it go? Does nobody use it anymore?
And is joomla gone now too?
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What happened to sshguard? I'm trying to migrate over an older container and its not finding an ebuild for sshguard on the new system. I know it existed before, and it's still in the install guide as a recommended install. Surely it wasn't abandoned? Where did it go? Does nobody use it anymore?
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On 1/28/2021 at 1:31 AM, dkg said:
FYI, the Funtoo Container FAQ still states that meta-repo is shared.
Yeah. Reading the FAQ threw me off. I'm sure my system is one of the old 1.2 ones (maybe earlier) that needs to be updated. I really don't want to start over again. I've literally not touched this thing in years. As long as its running and not hacked, I just couldn't be bothered. I've been away from computers forever now and barely open my laptop (running Solus because its easy) let alone configure anything. So now I have a system that can't update!
@drobbins What's the best way to tackle this? It's just running mail and web services. Just backup the config in /etc for mail and web services and stuff in /var/www and reinstall? Oooh ... I better backup /var/vmail! Is there a package list that can be moved? I don't remember where its stored. I literally can't remember what all is installed. Let me know what you recommend, and there is no hurry. I just had some time due to a back injury and thought I'd catch things up. Only keeping the server running because I still use the email for some things and I may install FoundryVTT in the future. I'll delay updates and fixes to the website until after we break it.
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I checked the logs before and didn't see anything odd. But, now its stopped doing it.Just a shot in the dark here, but this sounds like some PHP process hanging somewhere when a visitor first enters the site.
Does the php/httpd logfile does tell you anything?
I'm thinking it was maybe a DNS thing.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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Both points are valid, but there aren't many other options. Maybe we need a package manager that installs new software based on pre-defined groups and makes new users members.dansguardian can be used to block websites based on content.
The problem I see with restricting software based on group membership is that
1) you need to know which binaries you need to chmod
2) permissions will probably revert to their defaults upon upgrade (though I've not tested this)
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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I would just give separate accounts for play and school, for each kid. The play accounts would include an extra 'group' membership.
The Linux firewall can restrict access to sites by the processes owning user and group. Application can have execute restricted if not in the owning group. You may need a fairly sophisticated firewall to scan the page for keywords like 'game', 'movie', 'porn' or whatever else you like. Some stuff always blacklisted, rest of the net locked except for whitelisted sites during school. And VNC should already be well integrated.
Now, set up the 'play' accounts to be able to log in between certain times, and you can have a from job force the play accounts to log off when school starts. I would make the kid's school files accessible outside of school, but not the other way around.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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My website is tengine and joomla. There is a landing page (preloads some stupidly large javascript while you look at pretty animations) which has a link to the Joomla stuff (php via pfm)
Joomla hangs the first time you go into it. If you refresh or hit enter in the URL bar, it comes right up. Happens on multiple clients.
Anyone seen this before?
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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Nevermind. I got it all working and it seems to work great. Way cool to have my mail sorted into folders before I ever open one of my email programs.
Now I just need to move more of my mail to my own server. I'm loving this!
:-)
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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Anyone have a good HowTo for setting up DoveCot with Sieve filters?
I'm more familiar with Courier, but I just took the plunge and migrated over. I have sieve and managesieve USE flags set. The web site for Dovecot starts talking about Pigeonhole. Do I need it? There isn't an ebuild for it, so if I need it, what are the USE flags for?
I just don't see how this fits together and all I can find are a few undocumented posts of config files, and I refuse to blindly cut n paste, or instructions for Ubuntu that don't seem to apply to us.
Any Dovecot experts?
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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I don't think you need to bother with Metro. I remember the old Stage3 vs Stage1 wars on Gentoo (some 12 years ago now) and everyone will have their own thoughts. I like things to just work with a minimum of hassle. Just crab a stage3 and go.
BTW, you use a lot of Gnome software. The Gnome desktop supports ALT+SUPER+8 to turn on zoom, ALT+SUPER+'=' for zoom in (the +/= key and use '-' next to it to zoom out again). And if you really have trouble the screen reader is ALT+SUPER+S (if orca is installed). There are others like text size and high contrast adjustments, but those don't seem to have hot keys press defined.
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Systemd is NOT supported by Funtoo. Get it off your machine. You don't need it for Funtoo's Gnome.
Systemd on systems its supposed to work on does weird stuff like this. Trying to meld it with Funtoo OpenRC is asking for serious pain.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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Another similar tool to fail2ban is sshguard, but you might to just get a list of Chinese IPs and permanently block them all.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
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There was a slashdot article about Busybox removing systemd support, which turned into an sub-thread about an ipv6 over ipv4 service. The systemd maintainers added a respawn "fix" that would restart the service within 10 seconds since the daemon would abort if the network wasn't up .... of course this means that the upstream service providers get hit with retries every 10 seconds if your password is wrong or something else is misconfigured, and they were annoyed that the warning NOT to respawn wasn't being acknowledged and no notification was given that the unit file was being changed. They site systemd as the problem for not verifying that the network is up before starting the service. The systemd folks site that this shouldn't be necessary since "modern" systems (he mentions his Apple Powerbook) have intermittent networking and the daemon should use exponential backoff if the network is down. The daemon author says people need to read the logs before restarting the daemon and the systemd guys say that users aren't admins and don't read logs!
This is a classic example of what I see as the division of thought. The old-school admins see a server and classic start-up routines - you are started when networking comes up. If networking is down, abort. Read the logs. Auto-restart is bad. Systemd wants it easy and wants it to work on a laptop without thought (and apparently without a GUI tool that checks the log to decide if it should respawn), wants services to be restarted and says that the daemon author doesn't provide an exit code as to why the daemon stopped, so the only choice is to restart for all exits. He says the daemon is bi-polar because it will retry if the network is up when its started, but not other times, and sites network connectivity problems may not be local.
Here's my take on this. Network down and can't connect are two different things. The former is a local issues and easy to detect. In this instance, the daemon can/should quit and log. Further, networking should be UP before the daemon is started. Specifically, the daemon should be started as a response to the "event" that the network is up. If there is a login problem or other issue, it should also abort and log. If the network is up, but you can't connect to the server, then use exponential backoff and retry. Systemd should know when network devices like Wifi disconnect and reconnect. It should also know if the daemon is running. It should start the daemon on the condition that the network has been brought up and it is not already running.
Now ... what am I missing ??? Why would it start without networking being up? Why would anyone restart the service every 10 seconds? Sounds brain dead to me! Typical SysV init would run the network up/down scripts and get this right. Systemd SHOULD get this right, and I'm sure someone will say its been misconfigured or whatever, but notice two different mind-sets here. One person wants it to just work with focus on easy - and who cares what damage it may cause. The other person wants people to stop and read (no matter how unrealistic that may be).
I once had someone tell me they couldn't print ... they said some error message kept popping up. I said, "What does it say?" They said, "I dunno". I said, "Well, try it again and read it!" And I could tell they were mad that I wouldn't run over there and fix their stupid Windows problem ... they did not want to read me any technical jargon from some error message on the screen! The response was, "Nevermind." ... WHAT? ... Guess what the Error said?
PRINTER OUT OF PAPER!
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I'm not really a fan of udisks either. Even after unmounting/ejecting a usb device, I can't fsck the thing because the kernel thinks its in use, even with no files open on it. I think this is a udisks issue, which is now a systemd thing. The workaround is to remove the device and reinsert it but don't open it or else udisks will hang on to it forever.Unfortunately a lot of people have bought into the misinformation that you can't have a modern Linux distro without systemd. Spread the word. http://without-systemd.org/
These over-complicated system daemons are horrible. And they all seem to come from freedesktop.org ... I'm really starting to hate freedesktop.org.
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It doubt it will ever be an option, let alone the default.I really hope that we dont have systemd in funtoo, some people are migrating from linux to freebsd because of systemd. No systemd was one the reasons i chose funtoo.
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It seems like it would be pretty easy to write a generic init script that would use unit files like configuration files. Call it unitrc. Then making a unit file work for start up would just be:
ln -s /etc/init.d/unitrc /etc/init.d/myservice mv /usr/lib/systemd/system/myservice.service /etc/conf.d/myservice rc-update add myservice
Note that systemd's service startup information is stored in /usr. Another example of the perversity of systemd.Or modify rc-update to look for systemd unit files?
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There would seem to an issue with fragmentation of our userbase. This will only get worse. It would be nice to abstract daemon installation in some portable way.;)
On a sidenote...but relative as it's an example of some attitudes toward systemd....was installing profile-sync-dameon...ie..psd....and ended up seeing this...read down a bit at the NOTE FOR VERSION 6:
https://github.com/graysky2/profile-sync-daemon
Some people are just lazy.
Maybe some application that could convert from some universal configuration to whatever the local init system requires, or perhaps we should accept that systemd will be prevalent and make a converter that converts systemd configurations to openrc scripts? Does such a think already exist?
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Well, I don't see what is the problem with alternatives. We support exim and postfix, for example. There're a lot of options and this is just that, IMHO.
I assume that developers accross distros know what they're doing. I don't see anybody pushing anybody to adopt SystemD. I think you're assuming otherwise and I'd like to see some proof of that, if you have any.
I agree that the maintainers have a hard time and that they're overworked. I appreciate everything they do. On the other hand, it's their choice and they're up to the task. In fact, It might even prove to be simpler to maintain stuff instead of going overboard not supporting it and making everything still work; which is the case of Gnome, at least.
I don't agree with you speaking for everybody. Please, speak in your name only and let "everybody" speak for their own. It is not about what Red hat offers... it has never been about that. I don't think Funtoo keeps a tab on this.
Your own post is my proof. You said it would be easier to accept systemd rather than maintain changes to projects such as Gnome (which is another RedHat funded/controlled project I might add).
You act like it was extra work to remove systemd support from Gnome, like without the changes we'd have a choice. The opposite is true. Gnome is hard dependant on systemd and it was changed to allow a choice. So, your example is perfect. Gnome's reliance on systemd pretty much causes the distro to switch to systemd. Even if you don't install Gnome, the requirement for systemd in order to be able to run Gnome causes so many changes elsewhere (the main complaint many of us have) that you are basically strong-armed into a full systemd switch-over. Sadly, I like Gnome. Even anti-Gnome distros switch to 'jump on the bandwagon' as many have suggested.
Your line of thinking is exactly what happened and EASY took over rather than any technical merit. See Google for sticky details.
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Its portage that determines where things are installed. What did you change?
I would say the culprit is near /use/lib/portage .. likely copy that tree from another machine and pray.
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Option 3:
Is there a 3rd option? I thought funtoo was looking into revising the init system. It may be interesting to look at a set if goals that could satisfy the technical needs of both systemd and openrc users. I say 'technical' since API level compatibility with systemd for Gnome support or something might be useful, but simply doing it the way X does it (where X is systemd or traditional SysV Unix) should not be a factor ... only the actual benefits of an approach.
Obviously, such a thing would be a huge project, but I think we have the expertise to pull it off. Yet, I'm not even suggesting coding such a thing at this point, only a change from the current circular banter to what we propose an ideal init would look like.
More about me at https://eddon.systems
August?
in Funtoo Hosting
Posted
Well, shit. I have 30 days to find a new hosting provider and move all my stuff over?
🤯 Someone please make some suggestions. I haven't even looked at providers in forever. I don't even know where to start and I just started a business and need to keep Processwire, Opencart, and Postfix/Nginx running and all that.