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Showing content with the highest reputation since 05/29/2014 in all areas

  1. 8 points
    Hi All, In order to have more predictability for users, Funtoo Linux is going to adopt a six-month release schedule starting in 2018. Our kits are currently at 1.0-prime, and we are going to skip over 1.1-prime (it didn't get done fast enough) and jump to 1.2-prime. We are going to start development on 1.2-prime today, December 28, 2017, with a planned release of the production 1.2-prime on January 21, 2018. We will then maintain the 1.2-prime kits for the next six months, until they are replaced with 1.3-prime. The schedule in detail is as follows: December, 28, 2017: start development on 1.2 January 1, 2018: we will be rolling out a python-modules-kit and perl-modules-kit as new kits (for 1.0+) January 4, 2018: Alpha release of 1.2 January 11, 2018: Beta release of 1.2 We will have a release candidate when we feel we are ready, with a scheduled production release on January 21, 2018. On February 1, 2018, the 1.0-prime kits will be deprecated and users will be migrated to the 1.2-prime kits (this should be seamless unless you've hard-coded 1.0 or 1.1-prime kits in ego.conf.) For 1.2-prime, what we are going to attempt to deliver is a default gcc of 6.4 and all ebuilds updated to be in sync with Gentoo as of January 2018. We will be using a 'current' (non-snapshotted tree) until around January 4th when we will freeze the tree and then will start backporting security fixes and updates. In a few hours, the 1.2-prime kits will appear but will be tagged as DEVELOPMENT quality, so they should not be used until they are made default. I will post updates here on our progress. Regards, Daniel
  2. 7 points

    1.2 Funtoo Linux Release

    Hi All, The Funtoo Linux 1.2 release is now available for use. Many of us are now running Funtoo Linux 1.2. Here's how to upgrade your system to Funtoo Linux 1.2. Note that soon, 1.2 will be the "default" version of Funtoo Linux. For now, you need to perform certain steps to switch over. We're doing this so that power users can switch over right away, and so we can make things a lot easier for less-experienced users to upgrade to Funtoo Linux 1.2. One of the features I have been working on behind-the-scenes is an "easy upgrade" functionality for ego, to perform big updates automatically. This functionality is not yet ready, but is being worked on. When this "easy upgrade" functionality is ready, 1.2 will be released via "easy upgrade" to systems who have not yet upgraded. For now, power users can upgrade by performing the following steps. First, select the new kits in your /etc/ego.conf: [kits] core-kit = 1.2-prime security-kit = 1.2-prime kde-kit = 5.12-prime media-kit = 1.2-prime java-kit = 1.2-prime ruby-kit = 1.2-prime haskell-kit = 1.2-prime lisp-scheme-kit = 1.2-prime lang-kit = 1.2-prime dev-kit = 1.2-prime desktop-kit = 1.2-prime Then, perform the following steps, as root: # ego sync This will activate the new kits. Now, if you have a /etc/portage/repos.conf/funtoo symlink, remove it: # rm /etc/portage/repos.conf/funtoo Next, # emerge -u1 gcc This will upgrade gcc. Next, # emerge -u1 glibc libnsl libtirpc rpcsvc-proto Glibc will now be upgraded. Next, # emerge -auDN @system This will upgrade your core system set of packages. Next, # emerge -auDN @world This will upgrade all other packages. Next, # emerge @preserved-rebuild This will rebuild packages that are linked to old libraries. Now, final step: # revdep-rebuild --library 'libstdc++.so.6' -- --exclude sys-devel/gcc This will rebuild all remaining packages that need to be linked against the new libstdc++. At this point, you are now upgraded to Funtoo Linux 1.2! Please report any bugs to https://bugs.funtoo.org and let us know of any issues you experience, either as part of the upgrade, related to dependencies, or related to functionality on your upgraded system. Best, Daniel Robbins
  3. 7 points

    ego-2.2.0 released

    Hi All, ego-2.2.0 has been released, and is an important update, and will be appearing in meta-repo soon. New functionality has been added to help you view kit configuration. To view your current kit settings, type: # ego kit status This will display your current kit settings, as well as their stability level. The stability level is set by Funtoo and lets you know if you are running something we consider 'stable' or not. We recommend that all our users use kits that have a 'prime' stability level. Note that this is different than the kit having 'prime' in its name! When I create a kit, I may call it 1.1-prime if the goal is to make it production-quality, but the moment it is created, it is still considered 'dev' (developers only) status. Type "man ego-kit" for more information on this. It is now also possible to view a similar listing, but one that displays ALL available kits and their stability levels, by typing: # ego kit list This new release of ego also includes a host of other improvements, such as improvements to the "ego doc" MediaWiki parser. Enjoy, Daniel
  4. 6 points

    A multitude of new kits...

    Hi all, A multitude of new kits are coming your way. I'll give you a list of what they are and share other kit-related updates with you. The new kits you'll be seeing soon are: ruby-kit, haskell-kit, ml-lang-kit, lisp-scheme-kit, and xfce-kit. With the exception of xfce-kit, these kits are all essentially sub-kits of dev-kit (and now have their own kit, just to try to pare down dev-kit a bit.) xfce-kit is for the XFCE 4.12 desktop environment. In addition, we have snapshotted/frozen the following kits: *java-kit*, ruby-kit, haskell-kit, ml-lang-kit, lisp-scheme-kit, *dev-kit*, xfce-kit and *desktop-kit*. Note that the kits in red are ones that previously following gentoo-current, and are now snapshotted as of today (Oct 22). The other kits listed are the new kits. With this wave of new kits, I am pushing forward the kit paradigm. With additional snapshotting of previously 'current' kits, I am putting funtoo's developer focus on getting the new 1.1-prime core-kit, media-kit and friends truly ready for production. The goal is to shift major updates to that they come via kit upgrades rather than a trickle of new package updates. What should you expect over the rest of the year? Expect further stabilization of our now-snapshotted kits. Also, when PHP 7.2.0 is released, expect a php-kit that will be snapshotted at 7.2-prime rather than following current as it does now. You should also expect to see a new generation of kits made available so you can select more recent packages. Also on the radar are automated features to help switch kits cleanly -- think of these as things like perl-cleaner and friends but that get automatically triggered when you switch kits to ensure a smooth transition. And yes, you will likely see a few more kits added to the mix, along with new ego features. With these new kits, the kit paradigm has been further advanced and will continue to advance. Along the way, you may feel that Funtoo Linux updates are getting 'stuck' or not going as quickly as you like, due to kits being frozen. If this impacts you, please provide us with feedback so we are aware of what things you need updated and why -- and understand that the pause in version bumps is more of a temporary phenomenon rather than a permanent reality. The updates will come -- in the form of kit bumps! The adjustment of our dev process will happen, and soon will reap rewards by offering stability as well as the latest ebuilds for you to choose from. Please feel free to share your questions and concerns on this thread. Best Regards, Daniel
  5. 6 points

    Welcome to the new forums!

    Hey all, welcome to the new forums! Our old forum software has been upgraded to the latest version and I'm going to be working hard to help make this a really great resource for everyone. Our "Funtoo Universe" section is set up in a traditional forum style, and "Help Central" is now in a Q&A-style mode. Let me know how you like the Q&A style mode. Both sets of forums allow you to tag posts as being answered and we have the ability to flag the best answer.
  6. 4 points

    New fastpull distfile service

    Hi All, Thanks to funtoo supporters, we now have a new fast download service that is available for everyone. Upgrading to the latest portage-2.3.25_beta2 will enable this service. The fastpull service consists of a lot of different moving parts, but it adds up to distfiles downloading very fast and being available. Here's how it works. When we regenerate meta-repo and kits, ebuilds are scanned for new SRC_URI tarballs, etc. These new distfiles are queued for download. Our fastpull spider then downloads these distfiles automatically, and uploads them to Google Cloud Storage. When you try to download a SRC_URI, you hit https://fastpull-us.funtoo.org first, which redirects you to the download on fast Google Cloud Storage. The design of fastpull is to ensure that all distfiles are always available going forward. It will also help us to identify situations where for some reason or another we are missing a distfile for download, although these situations should happen less and less frequently (and hopefully disappear) now that fastpull is deployed. Best, Daniel Robbins
  7. 4 points

    Welcome to the new forums!

    I just fixed login-related issues. Funtoo users who had not used the forums before were unable to log in. I've also fixed the password reset link to go to our official password reset page, as well as the create account link. So logins should be working well. One note is that if you were are user of the old forums, and you changed your 'displayname' to show something other than your username, then your forums account username will be your displayname. You can alternatively try logging in with your email as your username instead. Everyone else should be good to go using their funtoo username (and password, of course) to log in here.
  8. 4 points
    Chris Kurlinski

    My day Job

    Not sure how many people out there are like me, but here is a project I just about to complete for a client. I'm not in the IT industry, I'm in construction, a master plumber by trade, but do a lot of building management system integrations, and a lot of really specialty projects, like custom fire pits with iPad controls, high end pools ( we're talking 100K gal completely automated, heat pump / solar water heater for potable water, large solar systems ( looking forward to trying out the Tesla Power Wall ). Generally, anything that requires a computer interface, I'll do. Basic anything is boring, and not for me. Well, this leads my to my latest project that's wrapping up. (3) Years ago, I did a pool system for a client, but they didn't have time to build a structure over the equipment, and over the last (3) years the equipment is starting to fail, the Bahamian sun and sea is brutal on this kind of stuff. So I proposed to he client to build a structure over the equipment to protect it. He said great idea, what will it cost, and I went huh? After some thought and a lot of design work, I draw some plans up and priced it to the client, and he said great, when can you start. So here is the original design. And here is the final structure without paint. The only modification from the original design was the doors, which I custom built from Number 1 grade fir, and used some left over epi wood for the siding. Sanding and painting is all that is left.
  9. 3 points

    Ryzen stages available for download

    Ryzen stages are now available for download at the following links: https://build.funtoo.org/funtoo-current/x86-64bit/amd64-zen/ https://build.funtoo.org/funtoo-current/pure64/amd64-zen-pure64/ A new pure64 stage is building right now. Also, many thanks to CDN77 for sponsoring Funtoo -- our downloads now use a combined funtoo/CDN77 infrastructure for world-wide speed rather than a mirroring infrastructure. This applies to stage3 downloads as well as fastpull downloads.
  10. 3 points

    Funtoo improves Dropbox

    Hi All, I've just massively reworked the net-misc/dropbox ebuild to provide a much better experience in Funtoo and you should see this showing up in the next few hours. I couldn't get the Gentoo dropbox working reliably. Here is a list of all the changes: Updated to dropbox-39.4.49.ebuild No longer has an initscript It now sets up ~/.dropbox-dist for each user who sets up dropbox (rather than having a system dropbox install) You don't need to be in the "dropbox" group to use the dropbox nautilus (gnome file browser) extension gnome support is built-in (as long as "gnome" is set in USE, which it is if you are using the GNOME mix-in.) Reworked the python 'dropbox' script to provide a better user experience and be optimal for Funtoo: if you start "dropbox" for the first time from GNOME, it will start a GTK+ installer to set up dropbox for you. if you don't have a GUI, you can still install dropbox The above two features are existing features of dropbox that were somewhat borked in Gentoo. At the end of the setup process, you are given instructions on how to enable dropbox on startup. dropbox command-line tool is also included. Please note that if you have nautilus-dropbox installed, you will need to remove it. This should result in a really nice experience for dropbox users. Use as follows: # emerge dropbox (make sure it's 39.4.49 -- this is the new version.) (as regular user:) $ dropbox start -i This will initialize the ~/.dropbox-dist directory for the user via a command-line or GTK+ interface. Once this is done, dropbox start should be added to your .bash_login and/or .xprofile and can be run immediately to start dropbox in your current session. Since the ebuild is completely new, the possibility of bugs exist. Please report bugs at https://bugs.funtoo.org . Thanks. -Daniel
  11. 3 points
    I'd rather it be opt-in, myself. One of the main reasons for my using Linux over other OS's is that data is specifically NOT sent by default.
  12. 2 points

    How do I ask a good question?

    We’d love to help you. To improve your chances of getting an answer, here are some tips: Search, and research ...and keep track of what you find. Even if you don't find a useful answer elsewhere on the site, including links to related questions that haven't helped can help others in understanding how your question is different from the rest. Write a title that summarizes the specific problem The title is the first thing potential answerers will see, and if your title isn't interesting, they won't read the rest. So make it count: Pretend you're talking to a busy colleague and have to sum up your entire question in one sentence: what details can you include that will help someone identify and solve your problem? Include any error messages, key APIs, or unusual circumstances that make your question different from similar questions already on the site. Spelling, grammar and punctuation are important! Remember, this is the first part of your question others will see - you want to make a good impression. If you're not comfortable writing in English, ask a friend to proof-read it for you. If you're having trouble summarizing the problem, write the title last - sometimes writing the rest of the question first can make it easier to describe the problem. Examples: Bad: Is there command to do what it needs? Good: How can I apply changes proposed by emerge? Bad: Problem update system Good: Why does the compile of dev-libs/boost-1.63.0 fail with x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-g++: internal compiler error: Killed (program cc1plus)? Introduce the problem before you post any code In the body of your question, start by expanding on the summary you put in the title. Explain how you encountered the problem you're trying to solve, and any difficulties that have prevented you from solving it yourself. The first paragraph in your question is the second thing most readers will see, so make it as engaging and informative as possible. Help others reproduce the problem Not all questions benefit from including code. Here are some guidelines: Include just enough code to allow others to reproduce the problem. For portage errors include all the relevant info and output. Include all relevant tags Try to include a tag for the language, library, and specific API your question relates to. If you start typing in the tags field, the system will suggest tags that match what you've typed - be sure and read the descriptions given for them to make sure they're relevant to the question you're asking! See also: What are tags, and how should I use them? Proof-read before posting! Now that you're ready to ask your question, take a deep breath and read through it from start to finish. Pretend you're seeing it for the first time: does it make sense? Try reproducing the problem yourself, in a fresh environment and make sure you can do so using only the information included in your question. Add any details you missed and read through it again. Now is a good time to make sure that your title still describes the problem! Post the question and respond to feedback After you post, leave the question open in your browser for a bit, and see if anyone comments. If you missed an obvious piece of information, be ready to respond by editing your question to include it. If someone posts an answer, be ready to try it out and provide feedback! Look for help asking for help In spite of all your efforts, you may find your questions poorly-received. Don't despair! Learning to ask a good question is a worthy pursuit, and not one you'll master overnight. Here are some additional resources that you may find useful: Writing the perfect question How do I ask and answer homework questions? How to debug small programs Meta discussions on asking questions How to ask questions the smart way — long but good advice.
  13. 2 points

    Funtoo Stages and Release 1.2

    Hi All, By default, we are now building stage3's using Funtoo Linux 1.2 release as default. This means that new installs will have this in their /etc/ego.conf: [global] release = 1.2 If you are still using release 1.0, that's fine -- your system will continue to use 1.0. When you upgrade to ego 2.4.1 or later, you will be able to set the release as above in your ego.conf, re-run "ego sync", and you will be upgraded to the 1.2 release. The release= setting is simply a short-hand for setting the various 1.2-related kits individually in the [kits] section, so many of you are already running 1.2. Best, Daniel
  14. 2 points
    Oleg Vinichenko

    ZFS-0.7.9 added

    Following ebuilds now available for testing in Funtoo/Linux sys-fs/zfs-0.7.9 sys-fs/zfs-kmod-0.7.9 sys-kernel/spl-0.7.9 These versions have a portion of upstream fixes and also support for newer kernels. Ebuilds added without keywords and do require manual setting of /etc/portage/package.keywords before update. https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/releases
  15. 2 points
    Hi All, We have deployed our second-generation compute infrastructure and have begun the process of moving containers over to it. This funtoo-based infrastructure is running on faster hardware and is using ZFS for storage. For more information on our second-generation platform, see https://www.funtoo.org/Funtoo_Containers Also note that plans have been upgraded. Our base plan for $15/mo now comes with 8 cores and 60GB of storage (was 6 cores and 50GB previously.) The medium plan now has 16 cores and 120GB of storage (was 12 cores and 100GB). And our large plan now has 32 cores and 240GB of storage (was 24 cores and 200 GB). All existing containers will be automatically upgraded to these new resource levels when they are migrated to the new infrastructure :) Best, Daniel
  16. 2 points
    Oleg Vinichenko

    LLVM updates

    New kit, lllvm-kit now added. It consist of small numbers of ebuilds that are directly related to the sys-devel/llvm. The rationale behind this is that ebuilds for llvm had no update for very long time and are problematic to maintain due to those ebuilds were spread all over different kits. Now they are from one kit. This kit is enabled by default and involves following update steps: ego sync emerge -C llvm:0 clang:0 emerge -1 llvm mesa emerge -auDN @world emerge @preserved-rebuild
  17. 2 points

    Getting eix to work with kits

    This was very helpful. Your output... open("/etc/portage/repos.conf/", O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_LARGEFILE|O_DIRECTORY|O_CLOEXEC) = 3 My output... open("/etc/portage/repos.conf/", O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_DIRECTORY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 EACCES (Permission denied) It turns out that /etc/portage/repos.conf/ is owned by root:root. Presumably, eix is using the portage user, and in combination with my default umask=077, it did not have permission. It's not a problem for /var/git/meta-repo/ because it is owned by portage:portage. I had adjusted the permissions of /var/git/meta-repo/ and one point, but never touched /etc/portage/repos.conf/. Occasionally, umask=077 does lead to some oddities. I have it working now. Thank you.
  18. 2 points
    Hi All, Coming in the next regen of meta-repo are ebuilds and supporting tools for configuration of Razer (https://www.razerzone.com/) keyboards and mice. This allows you to create neat glowy and color effects, as well as do other useful things. To configure your Razer devices, first perform the following: # emerge polychromatic # reboot Then, you will need to add your desktop user to the plugdev group, and then start openrazer-daemon in your personal .bash-login or .xprofile: openrazer-daemon At this point, you should be able to run polychromatic controller in your desktop environment to configure your Razer devices.
  19. 2 points

    New ebuild: turbovnc

    Hi All, I have just committed net-misc/turbovnc to the Funtoo tree. Turbo VNC is a very good VNC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing) client and server. As a client, it will allow you to connect to remote systems and is very fast and feature-rich, with a ton of security options. As a server, it integrates with X and supports VirtualGL. VirtualGL is functionality that overcomes some inherent limitations of VNC, which traditionally does not support OpenGL or forces applications to use non-hardware rendering. With VirtualGL, you can remotely access a Funtoo system with hardware-accelerated OpenGL and benefit from its GPU (graphics will render on the remote system using hardware acceleration and then the rendered images will be transmitted to your client.) Learn more about VirtualGL here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VirtualGL As a client, I've found turbovnc to be significantly faster than tigervnc, and the client has a lot of very useful configuration options -- see screenshots below. Please give the ebuild a try and let me know how it works for you.
  20. 2 points

    A multitude of new kits...

    Also, in addition, I'm no longer updating master on the following kits: core-kit, security-kit, xorg-kit, gnome-kit, kde-kit, media-kit, perl-kit, python-kit. I made this change to reduce the clock time required to update our kits.
  21. 2 points

    ego-2.2.1 released

    Ego-2.2.1 has been released. This release includes fixes for the accuracy of information shown by "ego kit list", a helpful informational message at the end of the "ego kit" commands, and some minor unit test improvements.
  22. 2 points
    OK, you've got your SSL certificate and you have tengine or nginx setup, but you need it secure. After all, you've heard of all the recent DH attacks, BEAST, CRIME, FREAK, Heartbleed and others, right? Is your system already secure? Test it! Check out The SSL Labs Test Site. I'm getting an A+ rating! The following assumes tengine, but nginx is exactly the same, just s/tengine/nginx/g; Need a certificate? OK - I highly recommend StartSSL. It's FREE! These guys will step you through the process by following the instructions on their site. If you have problems, the tech support via email is instantaneous and incredibly professional. My cert was the free variety, but if I ever upgrade, I will go to them because the support (to a non-paying customer no less) was so good. OK ... Make a file /etc/tengine/ssl.conf (or equiv for nginx): >#- Ports to listen on, all addresses, IPv6 and IPv4listen [::]:443 ssl;listen 443 ssl;#- Support current SSL standards and options onlyssl_session_cache shared:SSL:10m;ssl_session_timeout 10m;ssl_protocols TLSv1 TLSv1.1 TLSv1.2;ssl_prefer_server_ciphers on;ssl_ciphers "EECDH+AESGCM:EDH+AESGCM:AES256+EECDH:AES256+EDH";ssl_session_tickets off;ssl_stapling on;ssl_stapling_verify on;#- And some security related headersadd_header Strict-Transport-Security "max-age=63072000; includeSubdomains; preload";add_header X-Frame-Options DENY;add_header X-Content-Type-Options nosniff; Now, go into your sites-available and in the server{} configuration for the site you want to include SSL, add these lines: >include /etc/tengine/ssl.conf;ssl_dhparam /etc/ssl/tengine/dhparam4096;ssl_trusted_certificate /etc/ssl/tengine/startssl_trust_chain.crt;ssl_certificate /etc/ssl/tengine/ssl-unified.crt;ssl_certificate_key /etc/ssl/tengine/ssl.key; Now, there are 4 files here for SSL in addition to the one we just included. Let's look at where they come from. First, you should have a certificate file (ssl.crt in the following), and a key for that file (private_ssl.key). The CRT begins with "-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----", but you will need to view this in vi, not less (less will try to decode many of these files). Your private key is password protected (the key is "-----BEGIN RSA PRIVATE KEY-----" followed by a line that says ENCRYPTED). Since you probably don't want to issue a password every time you start your server, let's fix that first. >openssl rsa -in private_ssl.key -out /etc/ssl/tengine/ssl.key Easy enough? And we have one of our lines done. 3 to go! The next is to create a chain of certificates back to the root. For StartSSL, you download their cert: >wget https://www.startssl.com/certs/class1/sha2/pem/sub.class1.server.sha2.ca.pem Then make the file you need with your cert and theirs. Here's your next 2 files! >cat ssl.crt sub.class1.server.sha2.ca.pem > /etc/ssl/tengine/ssl-unified.crtcp sub.class1.server.sha2.ca.pem /etc/ssl/tengine/startssl_trust_chain.crt Now, the final command for the final file: >openssl dhparam -out /etc/ssl/tengine/dhparam4096 4096 4096 might be overkill, but 1024 is the minimum and you might as well go all out just in case 1024 gets broken next month! Be sure all these files are secure! >chmod 0600 /etc/ssl/tengine/* Delete originals, clean up, then restart tengine. Next I'll cover gzip compression, detecting mobile client, and joomla configuration. Any particular one anyone wants to see first?
  23. 1 point
    the proto blocks should be resolved.
  24. 1 point
    AMD R9 380 Volcanic Islands TONGA graphics information.
  25. 1 point
    I'm a big fan of trying anything new, but the cardinal rule for me is this: Don't mess with the data. If you don't what to lose those irreplaceable pics of grandma, keep it on a separate drive. This is my mantra. I love playing with my system, updating, tweaking, and exploring. But this can be dangerous to your data. This is also the reason why I chosen to use zfs as my storage for all my data. I can get to it from just anywhere. If it's unix(-like), I can download the kernel modules and access it. I feel like zfs is the becoming the unix(-like) version of fat32. Let me explain. I just did some consulting on a smartos job, but I had to p2v an existing Windows 2k3 server, with a dying hard drive. Smartos is great an all, but it is really not setup to virtualise an existing machine. So I place the failing drive into my setup, created a zvol the same size as the failing drive, dd the old drive to the new zvol. Created a new KVM instance, and booted the thing up. After some general cleanup and a massive amount of defragging, I had a good image ready for production. Smartos side of things was fine, json took a little getting used to, helps finding a good validating editor, zfs send | zfs receive, brought up the zvol, and away I went with the client configuration, igmadm create and all. Now the setup is in production, and all seems to be well. But the real point of this endeavour is this, ZFS is getting to the point of being truly cross platform. The only thing that can't read ZFS is windows, and that access is a samba share away. As much as I like Smartos, I love Funtoo. If I was going to roll out a data centre with clean installs, then Smartos is a great base. But p2v a small business client, not so sure. That's why I'm thinking about a Smartos like Funtoo usb bootable read-only install, and keeping with the way Funtoo is, basically a recipe for using the existing tools to create it, because that is the right way to do it. Our BDFL gives us the tools to do anything we want with his creation, we as users of Funtoo, get to assemble it as we need to get the job done. This is my idea, bootable usb Funtoo minimal, bare essential tools, read only root, builtin zfs kernel and xen hypervisor. Now just to figure out how to do it........