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My 2 cents on systemd

systemd opinion

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#21
uudruid74

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You have totally missed my point. I need to assign an IP address on an embedded system (yes, memory constrained like original Unix). I don't want systemd-networkd to be available. Telling me that its more efficient for systemd-networkd to parse its configs than it is for my shell to do it is nonsense. And why would I bother to learn this? It brings zero value other than I can't use the same syntax and command lines that have worked for 40 years.

And the binary logs get corrupt and they just ignore it. There is a 'wont fix' bug report on it. Blatantly ignoring data corruption! I run systemd on my laptop and I know what crap it causes. When I have time, Funtoo will go back on the system and I can tell you from direct comparison that Funtoo ran just as fast, and had fewer problems.

And you think uptimes of 2-3 weeks is good? I'd fire you. Before systemd uptimes were in years and then we asked what hardware component died.

I think a lot of people have come to funtoo to get away from systemd. You won't find much love for that cancer here. Linux had become sad ... systemd, advertising, Ubuntu forcing you to use a search and then sharing the search with Amazon ... and in general really poor code stability from bloated software.

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#22
pr1vacy

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My experience with systemd is that when it decided to take a dump and crash there would be nothing in the log or a corrupt log which required a deletion and reboot.

 

What good is the log at this point? Rinse, repeat, CRASH!! over and over.

 

And not only that I would see errors generated that pointed away from systemd...in the wrong direction....but the problem would be something in systemd.

 

Removing it and the other rubbish...ie..libsystemd...and my Debian system was stable.

 

My definition of stable is no crashes or reboots for months. Only when I did a dist-upgrade did I need to reboot.

 

Lets assume it's a problem with the people managing Debians packages. Systemd is perfekt-o-mundo.

 

Is one not the least bit concerned with the way it is rapidly growing into this giant snowball that is trying to become as mandatory as the kernel for linux users?

 

When systemd started it was supposed to be an init system that added modern features and would be quick, reliable, compact...etc....

 

It's an obvious lie. So why would anyone want to defend systemd when they are continously flip flopping and doing things they said they wouldn't do?

 

I seriously question the rationale of the supporters. One must be very naive, very lazy or are a puppet for RH or the EN ESS AY.



#23
Renich

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Please, respect each other's opinions. We can discuss SystemD and leave out personal attacks. Let's not turn this into a flame war.

 

That said, awesome examples j-g-. Those are some of the reasons why I love SystemD. 

 

Those who have bad experience using SystemD is because of the poorly hacked/configured environment in where they tried it. I recommend checking out Fedora. It works flawlessly and bugs get attended, as the rest of them. I could say the same thing about Pulseaudio.

 

Also, I didn't come to Funtoo because of it's anti-SystemD attitude. I came here bacause:

 

  • it's a rolling release distro
  • It's taylor made; you can totally customize it (except for SystemD, that is "forbidden")
  • The build manager is based on Git.
  • It has awesome documentation
  • Daniel Robbins maintains it; with the help of a few chosen ones ;)

This is why it surprised me so much when I learned that SystemD would not be supported, ever. 


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#24
pr1vacy

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Personally I think a new trend is moving upward away from systemd.

 

I've witnessed several colleagues ditching OS's that they had used for a decade because they were being forced into systemd.

 

I believe a fork of Linux may be on the horizon since some of the larger distros have removed the support and option for other init systems.

 

Funtoo is at the forefront of this movement. HIP HIP HOORAY for FUNTOO! x3

 

Thanks DR and company.

 

My only regret is it took systemd for me to serioulsy look at Funtoo. It's great! Super lean and super fast. Best OS in the land!



#25
Renich

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Personally I think a new trend is moving upward away from systemd.

I agree to that.


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#26
j-g-

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I agree to that.

And I disagree, It goes both ways, on the gentoo list I've seen some folks, move to systemd, the thing is the systemd detractors tend to be more vocal about it(I find most to be people with too much time to waste) I'm in fact one of the people who got a bad taste of systemd in the first try, back when I was on Arch, it made me go to debian, and then I came to Gentoo and Funtoo(wiht a bit of BSDs in between that), and at some point decided to give systemd a try without the prejudices that you hear all the time, and now I quite like how pratical it is, and how easier it makes installing gentoo, and systemd-nspwan is one of my favorite things ever It's been more than 1 year now I haven't run chroot.



#27
j-g-

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  • The build manager is based on Git.
  • It has awesome documentation

Gentoo uses git now too so that isn't something in favor of Funtoo anymore.
In my desktop with Gentoo I have this now for getting the portage tree:

[DEFAULT]
main-repo = gentoo

[gentoo]
location = /var/lib/portage/repos/gentoo
sync-type = git
sync-uri = https://github.com/gentoo-mirror/gentoo
auto-sync = true

The main thing I like about Funtoo is the profile system.
 



#28
uudruid74

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I'm still not seeing all these benefits that I'm supposed to have. You took away the little bit of programmability I had with the shell and gave me back a config file and told me its for my own good and now I have to go learn all these new stuff from shifty documentation.

I never had a problem finding my boot logs. I do have a problem with systemd not letting me get to a true single user mode where I can fsck my partitions, let alone the root partition.

Seriously, exactly what benefit do I get? And don't point me to a website. I've read the propoganda, but in practice, its not there. Instead I have a 1.6MB init instead of the old 36K init, and a directory full of tools (all in the hundreds of K). And I hear I need DBUS just to start a service .... cause I need more dependencies in my startup?

Really, the small program mindset worked for Unix for the same reason OOP works, and why bastardizations of that philosophy are destroying computing. Encapsulation. With small binaries communicating through pipes the kernel enforces encapsulation and your API is stdin/stdout. Breaking encapsulation and enforcing dependencies is WRONG and systemd is all about enforced dependencies. I've been doing this too long not to see that this is a formula for a brittle system.

For what benefit?

I want LESS to break! KISS!

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#29
j-g-

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You have totally missed my point. I need to assign an IP address on an embedded system (yes, memory constrained like original Unix). I don't want systemd-networkd to be available. Telling me that its more efficient for systemd-networkd to parse its configs than it is for my shell to do it is nonsense. And why would I bother to learn this? It brings zero value other than I can't use the same syntax and command lines that have worked for 40 years.

And the binary logs get corrupt and they just ignore it. There is a 'wont fix' bug report on it. Blatantly ignoring data corruption! I run systemd on my laptop and I know what crap it causes. When I have time, Funtoo will go back on the system and I can tell you from direct comparison that Funtoo ran just as fast, and had fewer problems.

And you think uptimes of 2-3 weeks is good? I'd fire you. Before systemd uptimes were in years and then we asked what hardware component died.

 

In any modern system facing the internet, not upgrading a kernel weekly is just hoarding kernel bugs to be pwned IMHO, I would prefer to design something reliable that can be resilient if one system fails, so doing a reboot is no problem at any given time. I was talking about my desktop system.

In my view, memory constrains won't be an issue in embedded when you get to the 10nm scale, look at CHIP(The 9USD SoC) that thing is pretty small in physical size and you can definitely run systemd with plenty of space to do embedded stuff on it.
I'd also argue that a parser for ini-like files, would be much smaller and simpler, than a shell interpreter, so I'd put systemd and --enable-networkd when configuring the compilation, I in fact quite like the idea of a shellless system depending on what it's doing, exploits that run /bin/sh after breaking a arbitrary code execution vulnerability, it would be pointless, and would just end up in a crash.
 



#30
j-g-

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I'm still not seeing all these benefits that I'm supposed to have. You took away the little bit of programmability I had with the shell and gave me back a config file and told me its for my own good and now I have to go learn all these new stuff from shifty documentation.

I never had a problem finding my boot logs. I do have a problem with systemd not letting me get to a true single user mode where I can fsck my partitions, let alone the root partition.

 

It can be done, If I'm not wrong, the emergency target is what you would be looking for, about a year a go I asked if you could even do a split of a system that would have everything in one partiotion into /usr and  root partitions, WITHOUT a reboot, while running systemd, It can be done, I didn't try it, but got the most knowlegable guy about systemd at the gentoo list(Canek) to give it a try, turns out you can jump back and forth betweeen the systemd you have in the initramfs and your real system, and can change a lot of stuff from the initramfs, an fsck would be easy.



#31
uudruid74

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In any modern system facing the internet, not upgrading a kernel weekly is just hoarding kernel bugs to be pwned IMHO, I would prefer to design something reliable that can be resilient if one system fails, so doing a reboot is no problem at any given time. I was talking about my desktop system.
In my view, memory constrains won't be an issue in embedded when you get to the 10nm scale, look at CHIP(The 9USD SoC) that thing is pretty small in physical size and you can definitely run systemd with plenty of space to do embedded stuff on it.
I'd also argue that a parser for ini-like files, would be much smaller and simpler, than a shell interpreter, so I'd put systemd and --enable-networkd when configuring the compilation, I in fact quite like the idea of a shellless system depending on what it's doing, exploits that run /bin/sh after breaking a arbitrary code execution vulnerability, it would be pointless, and would just end up in a crash.


Internal network, not facing Internet. And even if it was, its double-NAT, one on my end (a Cisco ASA) and the other done by the ISP.

You upgrade your kernel every week? There are weekly bugs that allow remote root access in the Linux kernel? Either the kernel devel team has gone to shit in recent years or you are straight up lying. Kernel issues that allow remote root (PWND? Are you 18?) are incredibly rare. The problem is almost always userspace. The last big one was blamed on bash, but was really idiots using bash to process CGI and not untainting properly ... totally wrong tool for the job and running user input from the web into your shell and executing it is so stupid ... I don't have words.

Parsing systemd files faster than the shell? We could argue this for days, but its never going to be a noticeable difference and you took away part of my control ... and have me what in return? A microsecond faster boot? That's not a trade off I care to make. I don't upgrade my kernel every week and reboot all the time.

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#32
uudruid74

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It can be done, If I'm not wrong, the emergency target is what you would be looking for, about a year a go I asked if you could even do a split of a system that would have everything in one partiotion into /usr and root partitions, WITHOUT a reboot, while running systemd, It can be done, I didn't try it, but got the most knowlegable guy about systemd at the gentoo list(Canek) to give it a try, turns out you can jump back and forth betweeen the systemd you have in the initramfs and your real system, and can change a lot of stuff, an fsck would be easy.


Anywhere else
init S

You are telling me you don't know how either? "Would be easy" doesn't have the same effect as "The command is ..." In fact, "would be" sounds kinds iffy to me. This is pretty basic stuff. And if I have to ask an 'expert' just to get into a rescue mode that will actually let me check my filesystems ... something is very wrong!

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#33
j-g-

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Internal network, not facing Internet. And even if it was, its double-NAT, one on my end (a Cisco ASA) and the other done by the ISP.

You upgrade your kernel every week? There are weekly bugs that allow remote root access in the Linux kernel? Either the kernel devel team has gone to shit in recent years or you are straight up lying. Kernel issues that allow remote root (PWND? Are you 18?) are incredibly rare. The problem is almost always userspace. The last big one was blamed on bash, but was really idiots using bash to process CGI and not untainting properly ... totally wrong tool for the job and running user input from the web into your shell and executing it is so stupid ... I don't have words.
 

 

Starting the services faster is not the goal, it's having a fine grained management resource wise(CPU, memory, IO) of the process and it's child's trough cgroups to ensure, proper start  and stop of services, without having to be a shell ninja.

The kernel team in fact kind of has gone to the shit, the beloved by many Linus Torlvalds has let Microsoft put stuff like this in the kernel:

https://github.com/t...vsc_drv.c#L1026
Yes you folks have seen it, the linux kernel restarting an userspace service. Should the kernel do that? NO!

Red Hat releases upgrades for the RHEL kernel almost weekly, and the long term kernels at kernel.org recieve security upgrades almost weekly, Hadn't you noticed that?

 



#34
j-g-

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Anywhere else
init S

You are telling me you don't know how either? "Would be easy" doesn't have the same effect as "The command is ..." In fact, "would be" sounds kinds iffy to me. This is pretty basic stuff. And if I have to ask an 'expert' just to get into a rescue mode that will actually let me check my filesystems ... something is very wrong!

More about me at https://eddon.systems

 

adding a 1 to the kernel command line is the way I've done it, I won't read documentation for you when I'm not needing it, It can be done, I know how to read manuals, I can do it, I just don't need to do it often, I have configured my boot process to regularly fsck my drive anyway.

The comand to switch to the emergency target would be systemctl isolate emergency.target, again you not wanting to learn systemd, and thus making yourself wrong ideas is not my problem it's yours, I will be able to handle any system that comes my way, you won't because you are reluctant to learn.

PD: don't get caught by the nuances of my english, It's not my first language and in fact mostly self-learnt, I also don't like to pretend I know it all.



#35
uudruid74

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adding a 1 to the kernel command line is the way I've done it, I won't read documentation for you when I'm not needing it, It can be done, I know how to read manuals, I can do it, I just don't need to do it often, I have configured my boot process to regularly fsck my drive anyway.

The comand to switch to the emergency target would be systemctl isolate emergency.target, again you not wanting to learn systemd, and thus making yourself wrong ideas is not my problem it's yours, I will be able to handle any system that comes my way, you won't because you are reluctant to learn.

PD: don't get caught by the nuances of my english, It's not my first language and in fact mostly self-learnt, I also don't like to pretend I know it all.

No, but you are pretending that I don't already know these things and making it personal. Your English wasn't the issue. The fact is that the procedures that SHOULD work, don't. In spite of the fact that I shouldn't need to learn new commands, I have, and they fail.

The worst is when I tell systemd to stop a service and it says it did. I change a config file. I tell it to start the service, and it says it did. But ... no new config? I finally saw the pid never changed. I killed the process manually and restarted it and it worked fine. I lost hours because systemd lied to me.

So, instead of answering my question on what value systemd brings, you make assumptions on my intelligence and my character and THIS is another reason I want no part of systemd. When asked why I need it, I'm told I must be stupid.

Stupid me will stick with OpenRC until something better comes along ... and systemd isn't.

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#36
j-g-

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No, but you are pretending that I don't already know these things and making it personal. Your English wasn't the issue. The fact is that the procedures that SHOULD work, don't. In spite of the fact that I shouldn't need to learn new commands, I have, and they fail.

The worst is when I tell systemd to stop a service and it says it did. I change a config file. I tell it to start the service, and it says it did. But ... no new config? I finally saw the pid never changed. I killed the process manually and restarted it and it worked fine. I lost hours because systemd lied to me.

So, instead of answering my question on what value systemd brings, you make assumptions on my intelligence and my character and THIS is another reason I want no part of systemd. When asked why I need it, I'm told I must be stupid.

Stupid me will stick with OpenRC until something better comes along ... and systemd isn't.

More about me at https://eddon.systems

 

'I shouldn't need to learn new commands', but you learned the OpenRC commands and those had to be new to you at some point,  coming from debian,  or a bsd style init like Arch had, and you were asking me to solve a problem you had using my time to read stuff that's available for everyone to read, and of special interest for poeple like you( and me) that deal with computers, and to give you a detailed solution, we are discussing about software here not giving free support. That's why I said it was your problem. I know you do know the commands and in fact are knowledgeable about a lot of stuff I've read some of your post in the forum.

I'm just being ralistic here, systemd has come to stay for some years at least in the linux ecosystem, and just buring your head in the sand and wanting pretend it's not there, and having an 'anti-systemd' attitude, will only cost you in your career, I like most of it, I won't defend it as the most clever solution anyone could ever have came up with, but It works, and as all the software has bugs, bugs will exist as long as software and human error exis. Anyway I guess in your case you will actually learn the stuff and rant in formus like this one, longing for the days of  'the true unix'

Peace.



#37
uudruid74

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'I shouldn't need to learn new commands', but you learned the OpenRC commands and those had to be new to you at some point, coming from debian, or a bsd style init like Arch had, and you were asking me to solve a problem you had using my time to read stuff that's available for everyone to read, and of special interest for poeple like you( and me) that deal with computers, and to give you a detailed solution, we are discussing about software here not giving free support. That's why I said it was your problem. I know you do know the commands and in fact are knowledgeable about a lot of stuff I've read some of your post in the forum.

I'm just being ralistic here, systemd has come to stay for some years at least in the linux ecosystem, and just buring your head in the sand and wanting pretend it's not there, and having an 'anti-systemd' attitude, will only cost you in your career, I like most of it, I won't defend it as the most clever solution anyone could ever have came up with, but It works, and as all the software has bugs, bugs will exist as long as software and human error exis. Anyway I guess in your case you will actually learn the stuff and rant in formus like this one, longing for the days of 'the true unix'
Peace.

Just because everyone else uses it doesn't mean I will. Everyone else used Windows95 too, and they also had about the same arguments.

I said NO, Linux is better. I'm not caving and 'its here to stay' is not a valid reason to use it.

And '/etc/init.d/myservice start' works on most Unix systems. Its only systemd that changed that. Gentoo wasn't much of a learning curve and it didn't FORCE me. I even had other options and these did not affect the rest of the system. Normal sysV commands were wrapped and worked.

Some day there will be something better, but not today.

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#38
nrc

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BTW: I see you as kind of a unix purits, so here's a video from one of the men who was there when unix was born(Prof. Kernighan),  about pipes and some programming stuff. When unix started, It was not so much about 'one program, one thing', as the design goal, but more about memory constrains.


You don't seem to understand what Kernighan is saying. It's true that memory constraints played a roll in the creation of early UNIX tools but as Kernighan says in the interview, "Necessity is the mother of invention."  That invention - the UNIX philosophy of small tools interacting with one another - continued on its own merit for decades after memory constraints ceased to be a consideration. 

As Kernighan and Pike wrote in 1984, "[The UNIX] style was based on the use of tools: using programs separately or in combination to get a job done, rather than doing it by hand, by monolithic self-sufficient subsystems, or by special-purpose, one-time programs."
 
 

Another lie is saying you have to reboot for everything like in windows, apart from being a cheap argument because, the reason is mostly about kernel drivers, wich has nothing to do with systemd.,


You never established that anyone was lying about anything. It's rude to claim that someone is lying just because you don't understand or agree with their point of view.
 

PD: The binary logs argument against systemd isn't valid anymore, most livecds and distros have journalctl, and most distros put it in the initramfs also, you yourself said it(systemd is everywhere, isn't it?), and I don't know you but I still can't read and decode bits from the inside of the plate of my hard drive into UTF-8 characters telepathically and have a mental grep to search trough it, You need something that decodes your logs from the BINARY that's on your hard drive anyway, you  need a program to read logs, that's my point, so you CAN read your logs, In fact you can read much more information about failures, and filter it more quickly to get the lines you care about, than what you had by simple text  files in /var/log/, If YOU can't do it only shows you can't or don't want to read manuals nor search the web.

 
Binary log files are not acceptable.  Using a binary format renders them susceptible to corruption and creates a source of problems and incompatibility among tools.
 
Text log files don't require any special tools.  I can use essentially the same tools to examine logs on any system going back to my first UNIX system from 1984.   I don't need to worry about whether my rescue thumb drive has the right version of some specialized utility on it. 
 
Every excuse for adopting binary logs could have been addressed with proper configuration of existing tools and development of user space tools that met the specific needs that were unmet.
 
Your comment about reading manuals is specious.   The fact that many here switched to Funtoo from other distros proves that this has everything to do with philosophical objections to systemd and nothing to do with unwillingness to inability to learn something new.
 

Can you get logs of early boot as this using a traditional grub+sysvinit boot?


Really?


 


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#39
uudruid74

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Really?


ROTFLMAO! Thanks! I needed that. Been a long day ... week ... decade. Made me laugh
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#40
Renich

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If anybody here is interested in learning about SystemD, check this out: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Systemd

 

That page contains several good links. The definitive guide would be: http://www.freedeskt...atorsblogseries


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