Making Funtoo more Fun...

[drobbins]

Hi Everyone,

 

I am going to be making some changes to the project soon, to fulfill the vision of a user-centric community and also make Funtoo more suitable for enterprise systems.

 

Here is what I have found. If you have a single Funtoo system, then the continual changes that we receive from Gentoo are probably not a big deal. You do a system update daily or maybe once a week, resolve any issues, and your system continues to work well with a little hand-holding.

 

However, there is a lot of work being done behind the scenes by angry_vincent and myself to keep things working well. Our tree is created in a totally automated way, but we "fix" things that break as various things in Gentoo are updated.

 

And there is the problem. The automated Gentoo updates are fine for a single system, but if you like me have 5+ Funtoo systems, you do not update your systems regularly and then the various hand-holding, perl-cleaner, revdep-rebuild and blocker resolution is a huge pain.

 

And there is another problem... Angry_vincent and I probably spend 90%+ of our Funtoo time on fixing things that are broken, which means we have no time left to actually create new awesome technology to make Funtoo better. Like a boot-update rewrite, or a metro rewrite, all things that I want to get to. Yes, I find a way to sneak in time to do various things but it is not very ideal.

 

So, for any problem there is a solution. I have a vision of a solution that will give us the ability to have more control over quality, without doing a wholesale fork of all of Gentoo. I don't see the point of forking all of Gentoo... without better planning and technology, we will just duplicate the same problem of continuous rolling release, but have it happen on the Funtoo side. Rolling release is a good thing, but it is not suitable for all users of Funtoo or Gentoo... so we need something that will make Funtoo more capable without working against the benefits of rolling release.

 

Since I am not only a developer, not only BDFL, but also a *user* of Funtoo Linux (and *that* is what I consider myself first and foremost,) I want Funtoo Linux to work for larger scale deployments. And I want developers and *users* to not be continually burdened with unending ebuild updates and break/fix situations.

 

So, over the next few weeks, I am going to be reaching out to our small team of staff and get them up to speed on regular Funtoo maintenance so that I can focus my 'Funtoo' time on developing this new system. Not a new distro, but a new way that Funtoo will manage updates that will give us much more control and the ability to focus on strategic initiatives much, much more than we have in the past.

 

Best Regards,

 

Daniel

[darf]

Sounds like progress to me, let me know if I can be of help in a sysadmin kind of way.

 

Cheers,

Nick

[Animal-X?]

Nice decision Daniel.

It was time for a change! As it was not much help in productivity. Good luck and eagerly await ...

 

Cheers,

Sergio

[666threesixes666]

good plan.  do the most helpful stuff and big stuff, and let the details sort themselves out....

[Judge]

I'm excited what you will come up with. We read "I'm willing to help, but don't know how" in the forums and lists on a weekly basis, including me ;)

[jmmc]

Well stated Daniel, and a welcome update. I'm totally in support of your suggestions and wanted to say (if it's not stated enough) that you and the Funtoo Team are doing an excellent job of moving things forward.

[Oleg Vinichenko]

yes, that's sad true, it's literally takes all time to fix broken things here and there. I don't remember a single day without fixing something. not FUN :(

[Peje]

Something like monthly stable "milestone" portage snapshots would be great.

cu Peje

[morphmex]

As my friend says Alexander, you are eclectic and brilliant. My best wishes, after a bit of use of Debian stable and Sabayon,  I am preparing for a fresh install of Funtoo current version kde.

[mason]

Sounds good Drobbins, thank you for thinking about us. Im currently going to be working on learning python...and learning how to develop funtoo so I can be more of a help.

Thank you,

 

Mason M. Hauk

[sitquietly]

Oh yes.  Do it!

 

Funtoo seems to be the only place where this kind of fundamental re-evaluation of the "distro packaging" problem is taking place.  I've been seeing the problem from my own viewpoint, building a source-based distro that uses Arch Linux style pkgbuilds AND Gentoo style use-flags (which I call "features").  I have about 1500 packages which I upgrade no more than monthly.  Almost any change, upgrading a library, changing a feature (e.g. semantic-desktop -> -semantic-desktop) requires a huge rebuild and I see that it may be impossible to get a well-defined and reliable "operating system" while simultaneously cantering to the inner child's gleeful delight in NEW and DIFFERENT stuff every day.

 

Maybe a step toward creating a Funtoo for large scale deployments would be to define one or two standard use-flag sets (e.g. kde or server) against which some volunteers test the portage tree and do a "light freeze" periodically and when it looks good enough define that set of ebuilds as a "tested standard release".  Corporate/personal users could draw from the git branch "Release" to get something that at least is free of emerge blocks.  They could even apply use-flags other than the standard, but the Release would be known to work well with the Standard Features set (with no user-imposed package masks).

 

I was taught that engineering is all about working toward a goal within limitations. It's dealing with the limitations that makes an engineer.  However you do it I commend the idea of accepting limitations in order to produce a good product.  I really appreciate Funtoo; I run Debian Testing, my own Kit Linux, and Funtoo.  Of those Funtoo is the best operating system.  (btw Debian is second...)

[morphmex]

Great I think you have right.

[Sandro]

I think: or a precompiled distro or a source-based.

The distro that permit both binary pkg and compiling from sources, for me give great trouble (also see FreeBSD) cause are "spearate trees". and this may creeate conflict with very difficult possibility of merge it..

 

Portage is revoluctionary..... and for me the invicible package-manager on the Earth.

 

Thanks for All :)

[Sandro]

@morphmex: I'm very happy that you've seen the differencies from a precompiled "generic" distro to the Magical Funtoo :P :P:P

 

Funtoo must never Dies :D :!!!

 

I am willing to invite anyone to my house to let him try a precompiled vs Funtoo :P

There is no battle: D 

Especially if you have a processor that can benefit from the various new flags implemented (ssse3 se4.x avx avx2 etc...) 

I take a trivial example: AMD invented AMD64 technology, soon Integrated by Intel with EM64T technology. 

Now there is talk of "amd64" or "Intel64" where machine-level there are little differencies (eg AMD already has a Physical adress of 48 bits while Intel 39-bit (48 in compatibility mode).

 

When he was born the technology x86_64, gcc started to support this technology. 

So with a 64 AMD processor generation I would have gotten more or less the same results between the use -mtune=generic & mtune="cpu_type". 

 

Clearly more processors are technologically improved by adding many instructions (SSE3 SSSE3 SSE4.1 SSE4.2 then aes-ni AVX AVX2 etc.) the difference between a prebuilt package for "generic" and one compiled for Your cpu always does a greater difference (obviously depend very much on the ability of GCC to use algorithms that use the various new SIMD). 

 

I know people very good and with a gret knowledge about Linux systems ... but for them is not important compile from sources. 

 

I also said in the face of one Red Hat developer (who argued the goodness of their package-manager and "denigrating Portage):that "For me the package management system more eclectic and brilliant on this planet, form me iss Portage".  :D

not confirmed anything .... maybe because he only "saw Portage" but never used it seriously   :)

 

Good for All :)

 

PS: I've a 4771 cpu; comparing with phoronix benchs (using a 9360 with 6 cores / 12 thread) with Funtoo and his optimizations, in some tests win .... in other tests the values are "similar".

 

For example with my cpu:

$ phoronix-test-suite benchmark c-ray

give me 22 seconds.and in "Apache benchmark" is more efficient than a *BSD : http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_11_way&num=3

 

About "more fun" ? mmmm I don't know..... for me Funtoo is already fantastic at this time..... I have no idea how to improve Funtoo .... 

but .... I think that only Funtoo can beat Funtoo.

 

Maybe the implementation of a branch based on * BSD kernel? 

I do not know .... for me is already excellent as well :)

 

I hope not to have bored with this post

 

Good for All :)

[shamus397]

Any word on this project? Is there anything that can be shared about it yet? I'm very interested to know what you've got up your sleeve. :)

[drobbins]

The short update is that I have been distracted by paid work, and upgrading our wiki, but this is coming back on the radar...

[drobbins]

I have started work on this: https://bugs.funtoo.org/browse/FL-1627

[uudruid74]

Drobbins.  Something is very wrong with the universe.  I keep agreeing with your decisions, goals, and even implementations.  When I think, "there should be a way to do this better, maybe if ... " I suddenly see you are working on exactly that.  I never agree with anyone about computers!

 

So .. I used to use Gentoo aeons ago, and now that I've tried everything else all over again, its time to rejoin the fold and drink the Kool-aid.  I actually trust you to do the right thing with the distro I have on my computer, and I don't trust anyone else ... maybe Linus.

[adessemond]

If I can add a point, Funtoo is very developer friendly this is important to mention although not visible from the surface. We have the freedom to push in the tree fixes or new stuff while they stall in the Gentoo's bugzilla for months to not say years for a reason or another. Even with very little free time to spend on Funtoo it is always a pleasure to contribute and publish what could be helpful for others. Thanks again guys for your devotion and not stash people away, even they are not super active... But we are all user of our own distro after all.

[digifuzzy]

From the bugs posted and the response, I was getting that impression that you and Oleg were just overworked.

 

One of the really nice things I've run into changing to Funtoo is that if I ask the right keywords to google, I will find my own answer to problems. But this has limits. Don't get me wrong, I whole-heartedly agree with what is going on in Funtoo. Its a refreshing change, and I agree it can be more fun.

 

Will kibitz/contribute where I can.

[anak1n]

Sounds great. I'm still working toward updating the GNOME stuff. Anything else, just let me know. PM me on IRC or e-mail is fine, but I'm looking forward to helping out again :D

[Sandro]

I think that Funtoo is the best distribution.

LFS, T2 , are too complex. I think that is impossible for only one person to have a perfectly coherent system.

But Daniel has invented Portage that for me can be similar as an "expert system" :P Portage is Fun ......

Many distributions , in my opinion , to ease the difficulty setting Initials new users to GNU / Linux instead 're committing errors colossal . I speak of " Linux Mint and Fedora for example ."
What I hope Funtoo not want to invent solutions to simplify it installation. precisely because the "magic of Gen / Fun - too it is in teaching varoious characteristics of a GNU/Linux system.

Slackware as an installer; but for me is difficult. IFor me are more simple to use stages & portage.

In this time i prefer windows 8.1 then some other distributions, cause in an attempt to simplify things with messages " pedantic " in my opinion lead to confusion.

Hopefully those who develop an environment Dessktop for example must make intelligible the whole thing .... and without too much information .
.... But apparently many distros you Are losing theirs in " nonsense " that does not lead anywhere except to abandon the GNU system.
I hope first for Funtoo can be more ' Fun ' is due to the introduction of features not convoluted but not trivial .
I do not know .... but various distributions gave me a great sense of reliability . but right now ..... for me Funtoo is my favorite . although i'll remove the debian sources (cause also the kernel configuration is an important didactic perspective).
Systems must be for me powerful and safe; Since 1985 I realized what it meant to have some instruction in most of the processor (from a 6502 to a 65C02 ) .
This is why I always try and luckily found Gentoo Funtoo and that thanks to the intelligence of Portage (which could become an " expert system " ) .
Performances and flexibilty ( and i think That only Portage is the perfect balance ) .
Why I do not know if other complex deployments have utilities like Fun or Gen - too .
Daniel invented for me the best system on the planet Earth. I hope.
Here we talk about " Pure Eclecticism " .
And I think that You're a genius and you're able to create new functionality.

Too many simplifications i think is not ever the correct way. Your creation is a perfect compromise from apparently difficulties but real knoledge of that anyone can make.

Funtoo for me is already " Fun " enough . We do not bite off more than you can chew .
Otherwise is to fall and regress as the dozens of distributions " unnecessary " all based on " something else " .

If it does not exist anymore Funtoo ... well ... I would not use anything. May Be BSD. But .... wich system has utilties such as revdep-rebuild or the calculation of @preserved or @downgrade ?

Portage is Your Jewel. Nobel for Portage :D

 

I started in 2009/2010 with Gentoo .
A little ' I read the guides , but .... even when I failed I WANTED to install Gentoo , and begin to understand the intrinsic mechanisms of a system.

 

And for me is simply "The Best".

Wiith ssh conection i've installed 1 Gentoo and 1 Funtoo at 1100 Km of distance :D

However ... Thenk You with all my heart for your genius and your work.

Thank You Daniel. :)

 

Little example: My Funtoo boot up in 13 sec.

Fedora 21 boh 30 - 40 seconds.

 

W OpenRC :P